Even former East Berliners could travel East and trade with the Eastern block.

Has there ever been another case in human history, when one sociaty was permitted to build a wall around another and prevent all movement. Essentially the west bank has been converted into a prison and the entire Palestinian community are held as prisoners without a trail.

As mentioned on a previous blog, so far international justice only applies to enemies of the west. Will the Wests allies ever be required to live up to the standards we demand from others.

John A -

What is it about the Palestinians that causes countries to keep them separate from their own populations? What causes Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan to keep Palestinians in camps away from their own citizens? They have repeatedly demonstrated their desire to attack Israeli civilians with rockets and mortars. These have been condemned as international war crimes by Amnesty International. They attack and kill each other including their own children. They elected an Islamic terrorist government whose charter calls for the destruction of all Israelis.

John A,

The security fence is mostly a fence and only a wall where it is preferable to reduce the amount of land used for construction of the barrier.
It is not built "around", but between.

As Ben Wedeman mentions, it was built to prevent suicide bombers, who abused their freedom of movement to slaughter innocent Israelis, thereby breaking any form of international law.

Some graffitti has been deemed insensitive to Palestinian culture and has been coloured over in order to erase it.
What a shame, Palestinians don't realize that suicide bombings are insensitive to Israeli culture. The best way to prevent them is to block them since "erasing" them is out of the question.

In answer to your historical question, walls have been built by societies around other societies. These existed in most European countries and were commonly refered to as 'ghettos' derived from the Italian and Venetian Ghetto built in the 16th century.

In Morocco they were called Mellahs.

Today, many societies build walls around specific areas to keep out undesirables eg. South America,Lebanon, China, Bolivia, Iraq.

Palestinians have plenty of movement, around the West Bank and into Israel, legally and illegally. As Abbas said a few weeks ago, life is normal in the West Bank.

"Essentially the west bank has been converted into a prison":

How do you know, johnny baby, were you there? have you seen the fence? did you talk to those who travel freely between the west bank and jordan? have you spoken to arabs working in israel and travelling to and from the west bank every day?

again, no facts from you, only hate propaganda

to cite a famous song:

when will (you) ever learn, when will y(you) ever learn?

Indeed Palestinian people need to "Know Hope". At this time and age..no society ( I don't care who they are) deserve to be living under such brutal control of a Nazi style Israeli government. Imposing unnecessary punishment on the Palestinians..whose crime in the eyes of the Israelis is; wanting their land, their sea, their space, their dignity back.. has gone way too far. Primitive..backwards, and morally wrong. Characteristically, says a lot about these people..

Frankly am embarrassed my US taxes support such a despicable wall. Lets hope Obama will do something about it.

No Hope -

The Palestinian people have more freedom from the Israeli government that they would have in their refugee camps in the neighboring Muslim countries.

It is sad that anybody's money needs to be spent to keep them from murdering themselves and others, but that seems to be the nature of the beast. Who are the Nazis here, the ones who want to exterminate the Jews or the ones who want to protect the Jews? The Jews don't want to kill the Palestinians. If they did, they could have accomplished that a long time ago. The Jews want to live in peace. The Palestinian people want violence and blood instead of peace, so the Jews need a barrier to protect themselves. So be it. When/if the Palestinians evolve into peaceful human beings, then we can talk about more freedom.

An Egyptian pregnant woman was recently stabbed to death in a german court by a guy who hates Muslims.

Muslims throughout the world are complaining that the west's news media isn't covering it.

I think they have a right to complain this time. Can't find anything on CNN about it.

Can someone over there at least mention it please?!

Even the US has a strikingly similar wall--between the US and Mexico--and it's still being built. I don't see Obama putting a stop to that one-why on earth would anyone think he's going to do something about a wall between the West Bank and Israel??? That's absurd!

Why is it that some people just can't seem to grasp the concept of the fact that sovereign states have a right to secure their own borders and prevent people from being admitted if they don't meet the basic requirements that the immigration laws spell out ???

Some people think they have the right to travel wherever and whenever they choose-- that's nothing more than ignorance!

It's quite hilarious to read some of these posts. Why is it that some people think that it is Israel that keeps those in the West Bank from visiting other countries??? Israel only keeps them from visiting Israel if they don't meet the requirements for getting a permit or visa.

What is the big deal as far as a West Bank resident is concerned if they can't go to Israel???

Why do they need to go to Israel-especially if Israel doesn't want them there?? I fail to see the problem!

Surely they can go anywhere else in the world they desire-if they go via Egypt, Jordan, Syria or Lebanon !!!!!! Can't they ???? Or have those countries closed their borders to the Palestains also???

Sorry about their luck--they just need to accept the fact that Israel has the right as a sovereign state to keep their borders secure and restrict access to all those who they determine as being unfit and unqualified for admittance.

Even the US follows this same principal !!

Hope

since you have no idea whatsoever what the nazis did, don't you dare compare israel to the nazis

you show your absolute ignorance of facts and history

but you don't care , do you?

Steve Holmes,

This is typical.

Does every act of murder throughout the world deserve world wide news coverage??? I guess if your one of the Muslims complaining about this issue-the answer must be yes!!!

If this is true-- who is conspiring to keep all of these secrets--YTD thru June 27-- there's been 181 murders in the city of Chicago alone !!!!! I'd venture to say that NONE of them has made the 'wests' news media either--other than the local news. And certainly NONE has made the pages of CNN or any other national news either!!

Why aren't the people of Chicago and the rest of the people in the US complaining??????

Could it possibly be that they understand these acts of violence do not deserve world wide media attention???

So-–what is it that these Muslims are complaining about anyway???

No one else seems to feel slighted or left out !

Just one more thing to complain about and whine and cry and scream "oppression" "Injustice" 'inequality" "hatred against Islam" ...blah...blah.... blah....

Get over it !!!!

Yeeaah, that's it Barry!!, you nailed it maaan...

For a nation who callously wipes 1,380 Palestinians, 431 of them children in Gaza, you bring shame to the word Peace. You butchered over 1000 Lebanese civilians (2006), celebrated your exit by decorating the countryside with a million cluster bombs..for Lebanese children to pick up, remember?....How about kicking Palestinian people out of their homes to make way for settlements (those Russians migrant babes need a place to stay huh!)...Your violent actions labels you anything but peaceful loving...Bloodthirstiness YES! Devious and Manipulative YES! Thieves YES!!..Cowards YES!!...

Listen, stick with own little support group you created here...You'll get your "hip hip hurray" cheers from that Southern Fundamentalist world illiterate..who seems to be hovering with you here at all times....and please try and train your sensory to other flavors of opinions..even though may sound too mature for you...

I was just wondering why
"Cynthia McKinney kidnapped by Israel in International waters"‏ has not been reported...thank you.

John A,

Don't you think that Israeli border control and immigration policy is strictly an "internal issue" ??

You know, something that no one external should have any comments or opinions on !!

What I see, is a wall of hate,not of art,or endogenous dialogue,but a celebration of diatribe! The symbolic messages are all manifested from the past,and choreographed on a ancient artist hemlock-papyrus laden pallet with only poison pertpetuating the leeching brush! No message,No love,No tolerance,No remorse,and No compassion,void of all virtues! Futhermore,as most are aware of on this blog,which concerns me ,are the words spoken today by V.P. Biden ,that the United States won't dictate to Israel how they handle the ,"Iranian Nuclear Threat". All of us know that this is not the best time to be talking openly,about such a sensitive issue publically,period! Japan is on the threshold of dealing with North Korea,by itself,and China is nearing "Social Unrest", brought on by the "Global Financial Crises"! The United States is bogged down in Iraq, which seems ready to implode,and Afghanistan is fast becoming it's next,"Viet-Nam",not to forget Pakistan,and India at each others throats. This thespian whirlwind swirling around the globe is a preclude to WWIII.

Hope,

US taxpayers do not pay for the fence's construction.

Over 75% of US aid to Israel is spent on US products and joint security and development projects, providing jobs and security for US residents.

US taxpayers contribute towards aid to the Palestinians, who also receive aid from the EU, UN and Arab/Muslim countries.

This aid is used for development but also for weapons, terrorism and incitement against Israel.
Many Palestinians live on hand-outs with little incentive to try and support themselves. Even poor Egyptians are smuggling goods out of Gaza!

The US taxpayer does not see any of this aid paid back in kind or as Palestinian aid to the US.

Hope

you present lies as "facts", you present numbers which include terrorists and which are not verifyable, you dare to compare israel to nazis, you are nothing but misinformed

Hope –

What's the matter? The truth too hard for you to handle? Does it make you angry that more people support peace than support Palestinian Islamic terrorism? Amnesty International has condemned the acts of Palestinian terrorists as international war crimes. So much for your "freedom fighters". You don't know the difference between a country that is protecting their civilians from Islamic terrorism and the warmongering terrorists who attack them. The big difference between the Palestinians and the Israelis is that the Israelis learn from their mistakes. The Palestinians haven't learned anything in over 60 years. The Islamic terrorists will always lose in the end.

People are capable of so many lies and so much cruelty. I find that a little amazing. As a female, I've never even thought about my clothes or driving a car. My dad taught me over thirty years ago to drive and encouraged me. I was a little afraid because of a car wreck when I was ten. I cannot imagine a dad who told me not to drive. I'm going back to my basics, good and bad. I'm a good, strong driver of a car. I hear that some women cannot drive. I just can't imagine it. I just can't.

Patricia Braunschweiler,

No body is going to speak up for her because she got herself in to the mess.

Flagrant violations of immigration and import rules and regulations-- the very rules and regulations that the PA approved and signed onto in the Oslo Accords.

Neither Obama, Clinton, Biden or any member of congress will comment on her issue. Even the Black Congressional Caucus gave an official "NO COMMENT" when asked about Mckinney.

She simply fails to follow the rules like everyone else-–she thinks she's privileged-–just like the time she punched the Capitol Hill Police Officer because tried to make her go through the metal detector!

Here's Mckinney-- http://www.slate.com/?id=2064530

Patricia Braunschweiler -

McKinney is a well known, rabid anti-semite. She was not kidnapped. She was taken into custody for not following the rules, as usual. As I understand it, she has been deported along with her terrorist supporting buddies. Good riddance.

Hope,

You should address you ranting and raving and personal embarrassment to your local congress person. Maybe your message will be heard.

Maybe they'll give your concerns the same degree of attentiveness has they have to the former congress woman CNC Cynthia Mckinney.

Good Luck !!!

So, now those who are involved in humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip, (aside from Cynthia McKinney, a bit unbalanced), are anti-semite-terrorists. Nice one!. Other humanitarians are involved in these missions..eight so far..navigating international waters, (you own international water as well?)..their goal is to deliver humanitarian goods, "toilet paper"..to a stretch of land that has been denied air-land-and water access by your beloved democratic nation...

But restraining 1.5 million human beings, deprived from basic human essentials...trading-traveling, is a notable act of justice, and slaughtering 1,380 humans (431 children) using your F16 is a necessary feat for self preservation. Way to go....keep it up!

I think that Egypt should allow men and women from Gaza to move through it and work in other countries to bring in income and enrich Gaza. Why has that not happened? This is an oil rich place, very rich, so there should be jobs in oil wells and other places. The people of Gaza should be peaceful and trustworthy for their labor of course to earn their pay.

Hope,

Humanitarian goods being delivered-–How is a bag of cement and crayons considered Humanitarian goods.

There is a perfectly legal way to deliver any necessary humanitarian goods to Gaza.

Mckinney apparently doesn't realize that.

Access to Gaza via the sea is controlled by Israel-– via the Oslo Accords-- which the PA has agreed to. So there's no lawful or legal method to deliver anything to Gaza by sea.

CNC McKinney could have chosen a less expensive and quicker route to deliver the crayons!

21 people- 3 tons of stuff-– what a joke-nothing more than a publicity stunt that failed to get mentioned by ANY international news agencies !!!!

What a hoot !!!!

HOPE

facts, facts, not propaganda

"But restraining 1.5 million human beings, deprived from basic human essentials…trading-traveling, is a notable act of justice, and slaughtering 1,380 humans (431 children) using your F16 is a necessary feat for self preservation. Way to go….keep it up!"

why don't you complain to the Egyptians? Why the Isarelis?

Hamas wants to kill all Jews, not only the Israelis (I dare you deny this fact) and Hamas rules Gaza.

So you want Israel to help Hamas? FAT CHANCE

Let their Egyptian brothers help them!!!!

Of course your casualty numbers are neither verifyable, nor do they take into account the number of terrorists killed. How convenient for you, don't you think?

Barry you answered my point with references to Amnesty International.

Concerning Hamas you wrote, “They have repeatedly demonstrated their desire to attack Israeli civilians with rockets and mortars. These have been condemned as international war crimes by Amnesty International”.
--------------------------------
Now you believe Amnesty International? This is amazing.

So Barry here is what Amnesty International REALLY SAID about Israel & Hamas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYrTDa_RBO8

And more of what was REALLY SAID:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v06GXYrCUnM&feature=related

And here is what DEFENCE FOR CHILDREN INTERNATIONAL say!!!:

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/publ/research/CPReport.pdf

Here is what the Guardian REALLY SAID:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes-guardian

Here is what Israeli troops REALLY SAID:
http://www.wiseupjournal.com/?p=852

As for Israel’s justification, we can always read what Barry, Filipe Miriam & G have to say. Even if all reliable sources of information n the world would disagree with them.

And here is a review of Amnesty International’s work:
http://www.counterpunch.org/rooij1031.html

john

again: fact is a word in the english language. I do not know how to translate it intoi Arabic, so you can undestand it

as usual, you bring quotes about alleged killings that were later shown as false, such as wisupjournal, hahahahaha

but you do not care

you ignore any and all proof of facts being brought to your attention, you ignore anything and anybody who disagrees with you

that does not change the facts, does not change your falsification of history and propaganda lies

dci-pal.org as a source? you mmake me laugh, here is a list of their unbiased directors:

1. Randa Siniora – President
2. Fayez Al-Fasfous – Vice President
3. Mai Mer?i – Secretary
4. Khaled Farraj – Treasurer
5. Sha?wan Jabareen
6. Majed Nassar
7. Shadi Jaber
8. Sahar Fransis
9. Nassar Ibrahim

Hmmmm,

John A,

Hopefully all your newly found evidence of war crimes will admitted as evidence in the upcoming war crimes trials against the yet to be disclosed or indicted individuals. It would be a shame to allow such proof to go unseen in criminal trials! I hope all the proof holds up to judicial and prosecutorial review and found to be trustworthy and credible.

But I'll be patient and wait on the appropriate court to review, indict and hold trials-– before declaring anyone guilty !!!

But that's certainly not something that anyone could possibly expect from you-–you already know who is guilty !!! Right !!!!!

John A

Here is what AI actually said in their report-

Recommendations

"Given the evidence of serious and extensive violations of international law by all parties to theconflict during Operation “Cast Lead”, and the lack of any meaningful measures towards accountability by either Israeli or Palestinian authorities, there is still a need for a full, independent and impartial investigation and for appropriate measures to bring perpetrators to justice and provide reparation to the victims."

Pretty amazing isn't it ??? After all their effort to perform an adequet, impartial, fair, balanced and unbisaed investigation-– they write a 117 page report that recommends the need for a full independent and impartial investigation !!!!!!!

What a hoot !!!!!!!!

They don't even have the balls to stand beheind their own investigation and report !!!!!

What does that tell you about their unbiased and impartial opinions ???

If they can't believe their own investigation and report-why should anyone???

http://www.amnesty.ie/amnesty/upload/images/amnesty_ie/campaigns/Israel%20OPT/Operation%20Cast%20Lead%20report%20July%202009.pdf

International aid and advocacy group Oxfam is demanding the "triumph of the rule of law" over Israel's barrier inside the West Bank.

Here is what OXFAM say:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8140408.stm

Here's some of your fredom and liberty as defined by Hamas !!!

People in Gaza best be following the rules and not making any problems!!!

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hPvcLvm0Fzm3RrgvrEHNlKal1F4wD99ACIIO0

See what happens to a foreign national that enters into Gaza ilegally !!!

Never to make an international news headline-- because -
1)They violated the law
2) It has nothing to do with Israel!

"Action alert for Jenny and Natalie – “You will never leave Gaza”
Jenny and Natalie, both British passport holders, and both long term human rights workers in the Gaza strip, are being prevented from leaving Gaza via the Rafah Crossing.

Both are members of Free Gaza who entered Gaza on the original Free Gaza boat --now they are being refused passage to leave Gaza!!!!

Too bad Cynthia Mckinney wasn't smart enough to figure out how to actually get in to Gaza-–they would just keep her dumb a$$ if she could really get in there!

Next time try the tunnels!!!!

http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6265&p=24601#p24601

Pretty comical stuff-– people think they can flaunt the laws in in foreign lands and get away with it-–looks like these to ladies are finding out the hard way.

If they were smart enough to figure out how to get in-why aren't they smart enough to figure out how to get out??

What a hoot!!!!

John A -

Yes Amnesty International made accusations against Israel as well. My point was that the rocket and mortar attacks by the Palestinian Islamic terrorists against Israeli civilians that started the conflict were condemned as war crimes by Amnesty International. Nothing you have posted refutes that basic statement. It remains what Amnesty International REALLY SAID.

The Palestinian Islamic war criminals started the conflict by attacking Israeli civilians for years. Now even Amnesty International agrees that the Palestinians are war criminals, something most of the world has known for many years. They are not freedom fighters; they are Islamic war criminals. Attacking Israel was and continues to be a horrible crime. The Israelis were forced to defend themselves. This lead to a great loss of life and resources that would not have happened had the Palestinian Islamic terrorists not attacked. It's too bad the Palestinians never learn from their mistakes. The next time Israel may not go so easy on them. The cycle has been repeated so long that it has become very predictable. The Islamic terrorists attack, Isreal defends itself, the Muslims/Arabs lose badly, they whine and cry about it for years, and then they do it again. The Palestinians are dying of sheer stupidity.

I am neither an Israeli nor a Palestinian but have been hearing about these two being at war since I could remember. I have also seen how the war between these two nations or what ever you call them has effected the rest of the world.

These two remind me of a couple who always scream , hit and mentally abuse each other yet stay in that dynamic by saying that they can't get a divorce because of the children. When in fact they don't know how to live any other way. And ofcourse god help their neighbors and parent of these couple.

Lets take a look at both side:
One one side we have Isreali's who have money, education and all the necessary resources. They can have land where ever they wish so in countries like US and Canada or even Europe with out grief.
So why live this way? Why live in constant war? Why get your people killed? IS IT WORTH IT? and please do not tell me it is because of religion at that this land was promised to them. The world is your oyster. Believe me there are many more beautiful part of the world with much more pleasant inhabitants.

One the other hand you have the Palestinians who of course claim that the land is theirs. Ok let say that the land and the country was 60+ years ago theirs. I am not sure if you remember history. Did USA return the country to Native indians. Did Britain return Australia and Canada to it native people. Before this happened Palestinians and Jews use to live side by side. This is a sad reality of wars and history. So many lands have been conquered in history. Look at history of US, Britiain, Ireland, Scotland, Australia or the Persian and Roman Emperors. In the past 60+ years of war what have you been able to acheive?

Now here is a theory that I have in regards to us the neighbors and family of this couple.
Until this two nations on both side are getting any financial aid from rest of the world they will not stop fighting. Lets face it I did not hear the financial crisis effecting these two.
Do you honestly think that the financial aid that is send by all countries to these two i s actually spent on matters such as food, education, shelter, medicine.
Most of the money that we sent goes on both sides toward their military and terrorists.
Lets face it if these two do not fight what would they do?
On Israel's side you have so many young people who have to go for military service for nearly five year. Because men who care called Rabbi's claim that they have to fight for the promised land. Ironically the military service does not apply to the religious teachers :) If there is no war. The government has to be able to find employment for its youth. Big delima. So lets keep fighting.

On Palestines side you have so many parents who instead of thinking of a future of the next generation just keep having kids non stop. Since I guess they do not care of the life that those poor kids are coming too. Think about having less kids but a better future for them. Provide them schools and tell them to aim for a better life instead of being suicide bomber or getting killed. So many times I have seen in news families that are leaving in the rubble while they are being killed and you see the family have 5+ kids. WHY?
-------------–
I truly feel bad for the kids on both side who have to live in such an environment with such parents. No wonder on both side they turn to murderers. My Prayers are with kids.
--------------
No as for world humanatarian / UN/ and all other countries.
STOP GIVING THEM MONEY TO FIGHT EACH OTHER.

Take those kids out of that country and take care of them since obviously their parents do not care. Feed , educate them and I bet they would turn their life around and would not want to just fight and do nothing in life
----------------

And please do not make Yaseer Arafat into a hero like GANDI or Nelson Mandela.
he had lots of money his bank account in France and switzerland left for his family to enjoy while palestinians have no food.

Hmmmmm i wonder where all the money came from :) Yes i remember all the poor muslim countries that would take money from their own people's mouth and give it to him thinking that it actually reached those poor palestinian families

Barry,
I can almost sympathize with your statement. When faced with the problems on the ground, situations can be hard to tolerate and when aggrieved people tend to strike back. Israel feels aggrieved and constant rocket launches from Hamas do not help resolve the situation. However failing to recognize any faults in Israels treatment of the Palestinians makes you're ideology equal to Hamas. Your ideology is radically one sided.

Also you fail to understand that greater powers have greater responsibility. Israel has the greater power. For example Britain and Spain have lost more lives to terrorists than Israel. Since 2003 Hamas rockets have killed 11 Israelis. This is a comparatively small number compared to those killed by ETA or the IRA. Never in history has Britain or Spain retaliated with virtual carpet bombing which would kill over 1300 innocent civilians. Israel has perpetrated this and this is nothing less than murder.

Your view is an eye for an eye. Or to be accurate 1400 eyes for 11 eyes. This is a barbaric logic. As said before I can sympathize with Israels aggravation with constant rocket attacks. Aggravation is understandable. Killing over 1300 civilians is not a helpful way to respond, its actually a very sick way to respond. To preserve your own ethics and culture you should not succumb to such a sick temptation or you will become worse than Hamas.

Hamas's actions should also be placed in context to the ordeal of the Palestinian people. If people are honest, they would admit that no person on earth would like the land they've lived on for generations to be handed over to another culture. No person on earth would like to be subject to an apartheid regime. Therefore to help solve the situation you must also try to recognize the grievances of the Palestinians. If you cant look at both sides you are as radical as Hamas and as radical as the most mad Zionists and Israeli settlers.

Filipe,
You always say Israel has not been found guilty by any court. Because Israel knew it would be found guilty it refused to sign the Rome statute and be subject to the ICC. So Filipe Israels supposed innocence comes through their refusal to be associated with the international legal system. Refusing to honor the laws of the civilized world does not make Israel innocent.

I was interested in watching the video you just aired from Iran, but the overlay about the Dow and the second overlay at the lower left corner blocked out the video so all that was seen was sky, trees and balconies. Do those overlays really NEED to be there?

John A,

That's a pathetic excuse and completely false--and you know it !!

This isn't about "Israel" being found guilty of anything! The ICC can't prosecute a State !!! We've been through this before-but you seem to get this blank spot on your brain-and can't seem to differentiate between an Individual Person and a Country or State !

The ICC can ONLY prosecute "INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE" for crimes !!!

Israel's failure to sign the Rome Statute doesn't absolve any Israeli from being charged with a crime !!!! It may complicate extradition procedures--but it certainly does not absolve anyone.

The ICC didn't care one damn bit that it would have problems extraditing Omar al-Bashir- they didn't let that get in the way of issuing an arrest warrant.

So- try again to explain why no international judicial body has indicted a single solitary individual from Israel of any so called "war crime" !!!!!

Just maybe it has to do with the fact they they've never had hard evidence that would stand up in court !!!

Try again-- your last attempt was just too weak!!!

Totally laughable-" Israel refuses to honor the international legal system." Yea --right-–!!!! Maybe the system just lacks the required set of balls to actually do what they're supposed to do.

But that's OK-- go ahead and blame that on Israel too!

So far, according to you, the entire would middle east would live in peace if their were no Israel there to cause problems !!!!

What a joke!

john

if you think facts go away by ignoring them, you are dead wrong!!!!

Jasmine

Israel military service is three years and not five years, and it has nothing to do with the Rabbis, but rather with the palestinians who kill israelis

John A,

Your constant attempts to make the Arab/Israeli conflict into a numbers game is pathetic!!!!

You can't hold Israel to blame because they have superior military power and greater accuracy.

Why don't you blame Hamas for the pitiful accuracy of their militants and miserable failure to buy precision weaponry from their suppliers? Their supporters in Iran could give them much better weapons than they do!

This is hardly the fault of the Israelis. Yet you are critical of them because they can actually hit their targets.

And you are critical of Israel because they chose to respond to to the rocket attacks with military force-–but you never offer up any alternative.

Israel found out over the course of several years that sitting back and doing nothing had no affect on the the rockets and mortars being launched into Israel by Hamas and their brothers. So that didn't work!

They did, however, determine that building a substantial security wall/fence between Israel and the West Bank had a significant affect on violence originating in the West Bank-- but you don't like that either.

No matter what--Hamas will stop firing rocket into Israel when they decide to -not before. Nothing short of Hamas being completely and totally destroyed will change that. Hamas has some serious thinking to do !! And the Gazans need to realize that they are in fact in control of their future-- they do have the ability to make a choice. Hopefully they'll make the correct choice.

I have to say this is becoming very entertaining... now we have a Canadian version of "G"..Wonderful!!

John A -

I have never said that Israel treats the Palestinians well. Nor have I ever espoused "an eye for an eye". Israel showed remarkable patience while it was being rocketed and mortared by thousands of projectiles for years. They warned the Palestinian Islamic terrorist state to stop or there would be severe consequences. The Palestinians didn't listen, as usual. BTW, most people have 2 eyes.

I don't play the numbers game, either. Would you feel better if Palestinian Islamic terrorists had killed 1400 Israelis? It matters to me that the Israelis civilians are constantly attacked by Islamic war criminals. Even if they kill no one, it doesn't lessen their evil and stated intent. It doesn't change the lives of people who have to run to bomb shelters wondering if they or their loved ones will survive the day.

I would not expect Israelis to treat Palestinians well. If a people got together and elected a terrorist government with the purpose of exterminating me and all my family and friends, they would not exactly be invited to my birthday party. Israel certainly treats Palestinians better than their "brothers" treat them in neighboring Muslim countries. The Palestinians don't treat Israeli's well either, even aside from the constant Islamic terrorism. The penalty for selling land to an Israeli is DEATH. That pretty much sums it up.

Israel did not carpet bomb Gaza, though I have certainly heard people who wish they had. Israel has the military might to turn Gaza into a smoking cinder. They didn't do that. They targeted Hamas and its infrastructure. Israel went out of its way to protect civilian lives, even though many of those same civilians voted for an Islamic terrorist government to exterminate Israel. Israel dropped leaflets, made phone calls, had ceasefires to allow humanitarian aid in, etc. Hamas's response was more war crimes to MAXIMIZE civilian casualties. Hamas Islamic terrorists fired from crowded urban areas, hospitals, schools, and mosques. They used women, children, and the elderly for human shields. Hamas cowards hid in tunnels while the civilians were prevented from fleeing the cities by their henchmen, again, all in an effort to maximize civilian casualties. Even with all Hamas did to try to get their own people killed, less than half of those killed were civilians. I think Israel exercised great restraint in the face of Palestinian terrorist evil.

The Palestinians haven't lived on that land for very long. The term Palestinian didn't even come into the lexicon until the 1950's. Well, I guess for Palestinian breeding machines that could be 4 generations... The whole land issue is just to give the Palestinians an excuse to keep hating and fighting. The Jews have been on that land non-stop for thousands of years, long before there were Christians and even longer before their were Arabs and Muslims there. The Arabs didn't invade the land until around the 10th century. When the state of Israel was legally established by the UN, none of that land belonged to any recognized country. Now, despite many attempts by Arabs/Muslims to steal Israel's land, it remains in Israel's hands. If the Palestinians had a valid claim to the land, they should have pursued it through legal challenges, not constant Islamic terrorism. But the fact remains is that they do not have a valid claim and they know this, so terrorism is their last outlet for all their hate and rage.

I understand the grievances of the Palestinian people. I think that most of their predicament is their own fault for choosing the path of hatred, lies, and Islamic terrorism. The major grievance about the land is just based on a lie. It wasn't their land. There was never a country called Palestine. Since there wasn't a Palestine, there wasn't any land owned by Palestine. No land was stolen. I've never seen a convincing case proving the land was stolen. The whole conflict that keeps the Palestinians poor, ignorant, and reviled is all based on a lie. They have been living this lie for so long that they thoroughly believe it and are willing to kill innocent people and sacrifice the lives of their own children to perpetuate this hatred.

Even sadder is the fact that they can have peace anytime they choose. They choose violence, more lies, and war instead. They haven't learned that Israel WILL defend itself.

More senseless Islamic terrorism led by a Palestinian:

Egyptian authorities have arrested 25 al-Qaida-linked terrorists on suspicion of plotting attacks on oil pipelines and ships crossing the Suez Canal.

The Egyptian Interior Ministry said the new cell was led by a Palestinian and included 24 Egyptians, mostly engineers and technicians.

They planned to use mobile phones to detonate explosives against ships crossing the Canal, the statement said.

The group learned how to make car bombs through communicating with al-Qaida terrorists on jihadi Web sites, according to an Interior Ministry statement.

The detainees confessed to funding their activities through contributions from Islamic charities abroad and in one case robbed a jewelry store and murdered its Coptic Christian owner.

Oil is money. I know single moms who work eight and twelve hours a day and struggle and hope their children are being cared for adequately. I find it hard to feel sorry or send aide to the middle east. They have tons of oil. They work eight to twelve hours a day and worry about their children???? I ask myself that a lot. I believe in freedom. That's my main belief. I couldn't live without it though some don't need it. Even in marriage, I need space. Go figure.

I have a very personal belief. I'll share it. It's not really the outcome that matters. It's the journey. In the end, President or cruel Dictator or school janitor, the end it death. What happened in the journey? Good? That;s how we judge ourself. That's how we are judged. How many benefited in the journey – I don't know that it is about change but how many benefited and came forward in knowledge and felt better for themselves and their children. Those are hard questions. Is the next generation going to be happier? That is the biggest question. Are they going to evolve in new, more powerful and helpful ways to others?

Barry I was reading your reply until you started to twist the truth beyond all recognition, which indecently is a typical Zionist action.
First your radical talk points all blame on Hamas, which makes you as radical as Hamas. Israel has imprisoned Palestinian children, knocked down their homes and has always failed to afforded them equality or normal human rights. This has happened since the Jewish terrorist group Ingrun was formed just prior to the creation of Israel. All the lame brains on this blog will respond like children and say that Palestinian terrorist have hurt Jews as well. Both have guilt and to radically blame one side and give complete justification to the other, makes you equal to those you criticize.

And lets just clear up your “Jews were there first spin”. In principle you can say Jews were there before Muslims as the Muslim religion was founded many years after the first Jew arrived in Jerusalem. But as mentioned on previous blogs, the Jewish king David conquered Jerusalem from Arabs. The Jews never founded the city, they simply renamed it. If you don’t care for the truth, don’t bother looking up the historical facts and remain in ignorance, I don’t mind. But Arabs have always been the largest denomination of this area, even if it was before they converted to the Muslim faith.

john A

as usual you ignore facts and start a spin

according to your logic, california, new mexico, texas and more shoild be retutned to mexico asap, and the mexicans are justified in bombing the usa until these territories are returned!!!

the same holds true for the rest of the usa which needs to be returned to the indians. until then the indians are justified in sending suicide bombers into manhattan, chicago and boston.

And then we have the sudetenland, breslau, koenigsberg and danzig, which belong to germany.

"Even former East Berliners could travel East and trade with the Eastern block."

palestinians from gaza can travel into egupt

palestinians from the west bank can travel into jordan. thousands of them work in israel.

but facts are not a concern of john, only lies and hamas propaganda

here are some more facts for you, john:

in 1948 Isarel accepted the two state solution, your arab friends rejected it

so what happened meanwhile?

in 1965 the PLO started its terror, so it cannot be the occupation that causes arab terror, can it?

after the 1967 war isarel was ready to go back to almost all of the pre 1967 ceasefire lines, no settlers in the west bank then, none in the gaza strip.

the arab reply: the three "Nos" of Khartoum

try and diprove these facts, I dare you John

John A -

More Islamic terrorist propaganda and lies. That's what we have come to expect from a terrorist supporter like yourself. Because I think the Palestinians need to take responsibility for their own evil agenda does not make me like Hamas and does not make me a radical. The Palestinians made and continue to make a choice to be violent liars and murderers. Stating that truth does not make one a radical just observant. Failing to recognize the truth despite overwhelming evidence just makes you ignorant.

If you think that Jews were not there before the Arabs, please provide proof. The Jews did not mysteriously appear just when King David lived. They have a rich history that precedes King David. As for your contention that King David defeated the Arabs in Jerusalem, please provide evidence. King David defeated the Jebusites, a local Canaanite tribe that had no connection with Arabia. I have never seen any evidence that the people who lived in the area at that time in history were Arabs. The Arabs didn't invade until the 10th century, like I said earlier. Don’t bother looking up the historical facts and remain in ignorance, I don’t mind. I think this is just another one of your lies that I continually debunk on these blogs. (I especially like the one about Muslims protecting Jews throughout history. That was a laugh and a half!)

The Palestinian Lie -

Historically, a "Palestinian" people never existed. The fact is that the Arabs who now call themselves by the English name "Palestinians" don't even know what their name is or should be in Arabic. Even Arab leaders and historians have admitted that a "Palestinian" people never existed. For example:

In 1937, the Arab leader Auni Bey Abdul Hadi told the Peel Commission: "There is no such country as Palestine. Palestine is a term the Zionists invented. Palestine is alien to us."

In 1946, Princeton's Arab professor of Middle East history, Philip Hitti, told the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry: "It's common knowledge, there is no such thing as Palestine in history."

In March 1977, Zahir Muhsein, an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw: "The 'Palestinian people' does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel."

Joseph Farah, an Arab-American journalist, writes: "The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. Palestine has never existed as an autonomous entity."

Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist acknowledged the lie he was fighting for: “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian? ... we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians. They removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag.”

The Syrian dictator Hafez Assad said: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity".

The Arabs who now claim to be natives of the Holy Land have migrated to Palestine and invaded the land after 1917, from neighboring Arab countries, predominantly from areas now known as Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq. None of these countries existed as nations prior to 1913.

John A -

There have actually been several invasions of Israel by the Arabs. Several historical sources list the invasion of Israel by the Arabs as occuring in the 7th century, including the one below.

The term "Palestinian" is a masterful twisting of history. To portray themselves as indigenous, Arab settlers adopted the name of an ancient Mediterranean tribe, the Philistines ("invaders" in Hebrew), that disappeared almost 3,000 years ago. The connection between this tribe and modern day Arabs is nil. Romans, in order to conceal their shame and anger with rebellious regions, changed the references to Judea and Samaria by naming the area Palestine.

Israel became a nation in the 14th century BCE. Two thousand years before the rise of Islam. Since 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for up to 1,000 years, with a continuous Jewish presence in the land for the past 3,300 years. The only Arab dominion since the Arab invasion and conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than 22 years.

King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem. For over 3,000 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital; it has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Tanach, the Jewish Bible. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. Jews pray facing Jerusalem; Muslims pray facing Mecca (often with their backs toward Jerusalem). In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. (The source? A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx. Yes, that Karl Marx.)

John A,

Just exactly what "Arabs" lived in the land known as the Kingdom of Israel before the ten tribes of Israelites ???

Let us know what historical records profess this claim.

It's liable re-write the pages of history as the free world understands it-that's truly a significant find !!!

What a joke!

As well-- you seem to be confused about the facts as you claim that King David conquered Jerusalem from the "Arabs" !!

Where did you get this ???

David conquered Jerusalem from the Jebusites, which were a tribe of Caananites !!!! Who are since extinct and were never in way shape or form ever considered as having Arab origins !!!

So- If you don't care for the truth, don't bother looking up the historical facts!!!!

Just continue to make them up as you go -–maybe some fool will believe you !!!

But to your dismay, I'm certain, none of the historical facts will ever change the fact that Israel exists where it does today !!! It simply doesn't matter and is of no consequence!

All of your whining about who was their first, and how many of them were there and why they left or why they came back or when they came back -simply does not matter.

Jasmine from Canada,

Your interest in the conflict is appreciated, however some of your information seems to be typical of the false impressions one receives from the international media.

Israelis cannot have land wherever they wish.
There are many countries in the world where an Israeli is denied entry.

Reference to Israelis as distinct from Jews can become blurred.
Do you imply that Jews should be denied a state?
,
If not, then should that state not be on the land that religiously, historically and culturally is connected to the Jewish people? Or, is it preferable that a portion of Canada, the US, Europe, North Africa, Arabia or Persia be designated a Jewish state, an area where there has been a short-term historical connection with Jews, but with often-times horrific consequences for them?

The financial crisis has hit Israel, and hard.
Miraculously, the Shekel is strong, but there are countless people who have lost their jobs, and medical and educational institutions which are struggling because their charitable donations have dried up. This leads to the issue of aid.

Israel receives US aid, most of which is spent back in the US providing income for thousands of Americans. Aid is also reciprocated to the US in the form of security, scientific and developmental projects.

Not all Israelis are religious and many would know less about Rabbis than you.
Religious Israelis come in all forms. Some are ultra-orthodox and refuse to do military service and others are modern orthodox and are among the most loyal to the state and its military.
Most, but not all, sovereign states have a military, necessary to defend their citizens. Unfortunately, Israel has had to have soldiers on constant high alert ever since her independence, and before.
Even Canada has an army, however it is fortunate to see little action on its own territory.

I personally don't give a hooey about races. Or countries. I know that in my country, which is good, the USA, I can protest, do whatever, and I won't be tortured or hurt in anyway. My kids, two now young adults, can mess up and they will be treated kindly. I hope that for all older parents who have young adults who are learning. To me, that is the measure. I have seen young adults protest in some countries, who needed it probably, and get arrested, hurt, or killed. I figured the killed ones are luckier. President Obama should protect this feeling first. Second, we need med attention. We never ask for other countries to assist or pay for our stuff. If we did, pay for our power usage in our homes, probably medical care would be easier. I know Gaza gets free power from Europe, and yet the ME has all the oil and should have jobs. I also think that people should be nice, sell themselves, we do, and work pretty darn hard everyday. My husband does. I did for years. I have little sympathy. Israel seems to move forward. Gaza seems to sends bombs. Bombs are just yucky on a very basic human level, but I have babies, grown children.

Today, in a grocery line, I was bored and glanced at a shelf. One photo, and I have taken a few, caught my attention. It was Mrs. Obama. I didn't vote for President Obama. I was captivated. I thought she was a mess up at first. Honestly. I think the world will struggle but move forward. It was LIFE photo on the cover. It is about time we were honest. The ME has issues. Most of us are sick of it and going to move on. Africa is remarkable. My hubby was a Peace Corps worker, fact so check it out if bored, in Africa. He is Scotish. People are just people. We start from there. God? Is it possible that he explains himself in different ways to different people, depending on our needs? Women covered or not, depends on the guys involved. Some are very reserved and some are not. How do we figure it out? We fight each other. That will happen. Sadly.

i am about sick of this junk. We all know good, helpful, kind and loving to everyone, even women. We all know bad. That is the bottom line. To those wanting to destroy the kind, they should be in prison, but hopefully they are few. If not, people are not weak. God is good. I know that was outlawed in Iran, but I still like it.

Barry wrote: King David founded the city of Jerusalem
————————————————————————————————–
Barry,
You’re free to remain utterly ignorant, I don’t mind. Or maybe you could try to learn some historical facts.

King David conquered Jerusalem from the Jebusites

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusites

This land was never founded by the Jews.

Some of the Zionist Clueless Klux Klan such as the fake university rector claim: “according to your logic, california, new mexico, texas and more shoild be retutned to mexico asap”

Clearly these raving mad Zionists don’t want to negotiate peace and return land that their military has occupied since 1967.

Let’s put such Zionist thoughts in context:

1st the Jewish race was saved from utter annihilation in 1945 and then given land which they had never won.

2nd If Iran does wipe Israel of the map with nuclear weapons; this will be a legitimate military conquest. Because Israel sets this example and feels it’s legitimate to win land through military campaigns.

John A,

!st- The Jews never needed to "win" the land of Israel-- it has always been theirs. Your posted links and utterings about the Jebusites acknowledges this.

What is your point anyway -- why would someone need to "win" what is already theirs??

2nd- The Iran issue will be resolved long before Iran has this capability-- even your President Obama has been clear on this--as well as the EU and Israel. No one is going to permit Iran to obtain a deliverable nuclear weapon. They will be dealt with accordingly.

So- no need to get your hopes up!

But it's nice to know your are such a great proponent of peace !!! I hope the same peace comes to your neighborhood! Just as it has to Tehran.

It's also nice to know you finally realized that the Land of Israel never did belong to the Arabs-– as you have repeatedly claimed. I see you finally had a chance to read up on some historical facts !

But since the Jebusites are an extinct ethnic group, that in effect makes the Jews the earliest surviving ethnic group of people known to have lived and established residency in the Judea and Samaria.

Thanks for clearing up the grey areas for us !!!!!

And you say---"Clearly these raving mad Zionists don’t want to negotiate peace and return land that their military has occupied since 1967."

What exactly is it you mean by that statement???

Do you expect Egypt to become the administrative authority over Gaza??

Do you propose that the West Bank be handed over to Jordan ???

You say "return the land" !!! "Return the land " -to who ???

Miriam,

I refuse to take any side of these two nations/ people/ religion or what ever the word is politically correct to describe them.

All I am saying is that enough is enough. Look at the mess that has been created in the world in the name of these two.

When are they going to stop? This is my point.
What are they achieving from this?

And contrary to what you mentioned both sides get sufficient money from other countries. Other wise how can they afford this war for so many years. Do you have any idea of the cost of a war?
It is not as if these two are such vast countries that in one part there is a war and in the other parts the country is fully functioning.

Yes canada has a military as well but they have not been in war for what is it now 50+ years. There is no way they would financially survive it without help from other nations.

All i know is me and I am sure many other countries are tired of this. And we are tired of our countries giving money to these two to kill each other. While we have to work hard , pay taxes and have so many homeless people who are hungry at our own country.

Charity begins at home

Miriam

I also wanted to mention that five year military service is not compulsary for the youth in Canada.

The sad part is that there are religious fanatics in both side that are always going to preach to their people to protect their holy land.
Isn't this what it is all about on both sides. And this is fueled by other countries such as Iran and .....

So I guess the only solution that is left for both sides is to continue this war and killing each other for the sake of religion.
And the rest of the world has to pay for it one way or the other.

Jasmine from Canada,

5 Year compulsory military service is not a requirement in Israel either-I'm not sure where you got this from-–it's 3yrs for men 2 yrs. for women.

What is sad is--it's a necessity dictated by the inherent aggressive nature of their neighbors.

If the US was constantly threatening to wipe Canada off the map-there would be mandatory conscription in Canada also.

As well--This Arab Israeli conflict has not made a mess of the rest of the world--the rest of the world has chose to involve themselves and made a mess via their involvement.

It's amazing how people/countries think that they need to involve themselves in the affairs of others-– then be accusatory when things don't go as they plan dictate. Quite frankly-– the issue is between Israel and the PA--no one else! No one else can solve the problem- no one else has the right to impose their will on Israel or the PA and dictate the terms of resolution.

If you're upset because Canada provides aid-–blame Canada--tell them to stay the h3ll out !! Don't blame Israel or the PA for Canada or anyone else choosing to become involved. No one forces Canada or any other country to put their nose or money in the situation.

As far as the that goes- The GDP of Canada and Israel are nearly the same--so Israel really doesn't depend on what aid is provided by Canada to survive-- it's a pi** in a bucket !!

In Fact--Here's what the Canadian Coalition for Democracies says about Canada's foreign aid

http://www.globalpolitician.com/22488-canada

"Arab-Palestinian Aid

Since 1993, Canada has provided over $390 million to the Arab-Palestinians. CIDA's continuing investment from its limited resources into providing for Palestinian development is a textbook example of betraying hardworking Canadians. Over the past 14 years the return on Canadian aid to Palestinians has little to show in terms of gains for freedom and democracy. Sadly, our aid has done much more to promote a terrorist death cult and internecine warfare as various factions seek to out-do each other in hatred directed at Israel, the lone oasis of values Canadians cherish in a part of the world where those values are under siege.

Should Canadian tax dollars support President Mahmoud Abbas who governs under a charter that calls for the annihilation of Israel and whose armed faction, the al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, is designated as an illegal terrorist organization in Canada? Should Canadian tax dollars fund UNRWA whose connections to incitement and violence are well-documented?"

Besides this-– I fail to find any evidence that Canada provides any foreign aid to Israel- Zero- Nada !!!

Filipe clearly you know nothing about the Jebusites or Israel or the history of the ME. I doubt you are even Jewish as your words show no knowledge of Israels past. You and Barry are simply racist against arabs.Your ignorance and hatred is a sad reflection on you, but it has nothing to do with fact.

John A -

I was waiting for you to run out of lies and play the race card. You are just another CS. You have been told repeatedly that King David defeated the Jebusites, a LOCAL tribe. If you have proof they they were actually Arabs you have been challenged to provide it. Of course you can't. It's all just more of your Arab/Muslim/terrorist propaganda. You've been busted again!

What does Filipe's religion have to do with the truth? Do you hate Jews that much that you will not listen to the truth if it comes from a Jew? I don't know where you come from, but it is obvious that you know very little about the Jews. That's why so many people reply to the inaccuracies (lies) in your posts.

Just because people who are obviously much smarter than you tell you the truth and expose your lies does not make them haters or racists.

John A,

Who ever said I was was Jewish???? This is another bit information you seemed to have made up as you go!

And obviously you no nothing about the ME, Israel or the Jebusites!!!

If you have evidence to contradict what I've posted-- please post so that my errors can be corrected-- your attacks on my character clearly shows the frustration you have. Yet you offer nothing to dispute the facts as I've presented them.

Go figure!!!!

Like I said before-your constant accusations to others of being racist must be rooted in your African American upbringing-- no matter what it is-if someone disagrees with you-- you claim them to be racist !

You seem to play the card well!!! You learned it somewhere !!

If you've got facts-– say them !!!

John A -

The article I was quoting from said that King David founded Jerusalem. This is correct. If you bothered to read the article you posted as "proof" you will see that the city that King David conquered was known as Jebus. King David founded Jerusalem on the land where Jebus stood. Nowhere did it say the King David built Jerusalem from scratch.

If you bothered to read your own "proof' you might not expose your own lies. Busted again!

John

clearly you know nothing about the Jebusites or Israel or the history of the ME.

right, next to the number one expert in the world, who ignores all and any fact verifyably presented to him, nobody has the right to bring real history to this block

how can anyone doubt the word of the great Johhny A, shame on you filipe

jebusites, the original arabs, john A said so!!

John A -

"Boo hoo, you're all racists and haters because you don't agree with my Arab lies and revisionist history."

Grow up. Your own "evidence" shows that King David founded Jerusalem after conquering Jebus from the local Canaanite tribe known as the Jebusites. No Arabs involved. No one said King David founded Jebus. He founded Jerusalem where Jebus once stood. Get over it. Even your own "evidence" proves you wrong. The Canaanites died out thousands of years ago. The Jews are the only ones left with continuous links to the land for thousands of years. Despite your attempt at spin, your outright lies have been exposed again. You have no right to talk about facts – until you actually get some.

John

Your ignorance and hatred is a sad reflection on you, but it has nothing to do with fact.

John A,

You said–"You and Barry are simply racist against arabs."

Please cite one example to support this accusation of me!!!

Otherwise-I'll just consider the accusation as nothing more than another of your blatant, unfounded, rants of anger and hate against someone who fails agree with your views.

You need not take my disagreeing with you personally. But your pitiful whining about Israel is nothing short of pathetic.

If you had any real grounds to support your claims-someone may actually take your views seriously-– but there really seems to be no one who agrees with you-on anything.

Doesn't that tell you something???

Filipe July 12th, 2009 1903 GMT
John A,

You said–”You and Barry are simply racist against arabs.”
----------

i say the same!
if it is against muslims you guys will join israel, USA and if more corrupte organisations would be against muslims you would also join them ...

and you guys just talk the woesrt crap ever seen in the whole internet ... mybe on earth ... exept of some other crap by your ideological leaders

there is no need to quote anything!

if anyone is interessted in who you guys/guy are/is ... just roll back throug the last 100 middleEast blogs ...

and there is no neeed to explain that your not a jew and that you dont agree with the USA and that you are not this and that

Itai,

You are another confused and lost soul !!!!

Muslims are not a "race"

Islam is not a "race"

Followers of Islam do not belong to any given "race". There are many ethnic groups of people and many different " of people who follow Islam.

You can't cite one example where I have been critical of Arabs!

So Itai-- Please explain-– your comment!

You are no different than John A Cut N Paste-– you think that if someone doesn't follow your views or your beliefs- they are "racist"!

Why--As you said above-"no need to quote anything"-- it's because you can't--there is no example to quote that can support your claim of "racism" !!

I do nothing more than disagree with your ideology-–that fails to make me a "racist".

Filipe,

First of all I did not say that Canada gives money to Jews only. Ofcourse they also give money to Palestinians. And other countries such as Iran also is involved.

What I am saying is that all "Financial" support to BOTH side should be stopped by every country.

This is a war between two neighboring countries and it should be between them ONLY. Of coure thanks to fundamentalists it has been turned into a HOLY WAR between two religions. Both claiming that this is their holy land.

That is why the other parts of the world have been involved because they think it is for saving their religion.

As i mentioned these two nations or ......... any name that is politically correct by both side are never going to reach peace as long as religious claims are attached to that land.

STOP DWELLING ON THE PAST AND TRY TO SEE A FUTURE IN PEACE. But I guess that is not possible.

So until then just keep killing each other and see what you will achieve.

My Sympathy and condolence for the next generation on both sides who is just going to live in the same predicament. Maybe you are use to this lifestyle so much that you choose to live this way.

Barry a city is not founded by changing a cities name. The proof that Jeruselum was not founded by the Jews is fundamental even in Jewish historical records.

But why would you do such a thing? There are only two answers. One, you are sadly lacking in knowledge. Two, you want to see Israels expansion, no matter how many need to die.

But probably the answer is both one and two.

More news:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8147377.stm

Jasmine from Canada,

Please don't mistake me for someone who is there or involved–I'm neither.

I never said you claimed Canada provides money to Jews-as I said above--I can't find where Canada provides one cent of aid to Israel. Maybe I'm wrong-– but if can support your claim--please do so.

So your claim that Canada supports both sides of this conflict lacks in credibility--

And I totally agree--the rest of the world should mind their own business-– the parties involved are the only ones who can resolve the issues-–neither is going permit anyone else to dictate the terms of a resolution-ever !!

John A -

Now you are playing word games to bolster your ridiculous proposition.

founder – One who founds, establishes, and erects;

It is quite natural to have one city built upon the remnants of another or to change names. New York used to be called New Amsterdam. Constantinople is now called Istanbul.

King David established and continued to build the city of Jerusalem on what was the city of Jebus which he conquered from the Canaanite tribe of the Jebusites around 1000BC. Again, no Arabs were involved. The Jews existed on the land long before and long after King David founded Jerusalem. The Jews still exist there today. Since the Jebusites don't exist anymore, your point is totally moot. The Jews have had a continuous population on that land for thousands of years, long before Arab invaders came or Muslims were invented.

I haven't done anything but cite a historical fact. The fact that you want so desperately to twist that ancient history into something negative about the Jews today shows your level of outright hatred for the Jews. You are coming across as a desperate and ignorant liar. This gives you the requisite characteristics for being a good spokesman for the Palestinian terrorists. Congratulations!

Jasmine

"This is a war between two neighboring countries"

how ignorant can you get?

There is no country named palestine, nor was there ever such a country

no word games of you or your friend John A will change that.

tough on you, but true

John A

let's see:

Washington DC

Amman

Riyad

Damascus

Khartoum

etc etc etc

none of them original cities, none of them capitals of countries that existed 2000 years ago

JERUSALEM

the capital of the Jewish state, then, today, tomorrow

and your Jesubites cannot change that fact, nor can you

Jasmine -

I guess you could say it is a war between a real country and a group of terrorists. The terrorists are too dumb to realize they are being used as pawns in somebody else's chess match. I think the Israelis are being pressured from outside, but ultimately not manipulated.

I like your idea of cutting off aid to BOTH sides. Let them work out their problems or destroy each other with no other hands on the chess board.

I think it is a great idea that will never be implemented. Too many players deeply entrenched in hate, and war, and evil. It's always hard to cut the strings of the puppets from the puppet masters.

Itai -

How do you know what groups I would join? Can you suddenly read minds?

If there was a group calling Muslims apes and pigs, I would not join. If there was a group supporting terrorism, torture, and murder of Muslims, I would not go along. If there was a group supporting treating Muslim women as subhuman or as property, I would not go along. If there was a group supporting the beheading of Muslims, the stoning of Muslim women, or the hanging of Muslim children, I would not join. If there was a group supporting honor killings of Muslim women or the marriage of elementary school age Muslim girls to dirty old men in their 50's and 60's, I would not go along. If there was a group who denies Muslim women the right to an education by destroying all schools for women, I would not go along.

I don't think that anyone should support groups that do these things to anybody, including Muslims.

BTW, Filipe is right. Islam is not a race, it is a religion. The many people who disagree with your statements are not automatically racists and haters. Just because you can't win a debate with facts, you have this need to resort to name calling, even though you demonstrate that you don't even understand the names you are calling others.

University Rector,

I really don’t mind the Jewish historical claim to the region, as long as it is historically accurate and not Zionist propoganda.

Lets look at your words “JERUSALEM the capital of the Jewish state, then, today, tomorrow”.

What you should write is “JERUSALEM the capital of the Jewish state after the Jesubites founded the city & for a relatively short period of time before the Arabs recaptured it. And never again until the United Nations donated the land to the victims of the holecaust.”

When you examine the truth, the Jews have a much weaker claim than the Arabs who have always lived there.

John A Cut N Paste,

You said-"When you examine the truth, the Jews have a much weaker claim than the Arabs who have always lived there.
"..

********************************************************************

Beginning when???

So now it's back to -who has a the weaker or stronger claim ???

"Always" – definition- every time; on every occasion; without exception,
continuously; uninterruptedly; forever.

It's already been proven that Arab presence in Israel fails to meet several of the accepted definitions of "always" !

Unless of course, YOUR definition of "always" commences upon the advent of Islam.

It is also a proven historical fact that the Jews were there millenia before the Arabs--and have never left.

If you have some historical evidence to prove otherwise-please share it with us.

Donated by the UN --BWAAAA!!!!!

The bottom line is, land was given to both the Jews and the Arabs by the legal administrative authority who presided over the land.

It's really too bad for the Arabs that they failed to accept what was given to them.

Now they want whine and cry to the world because they made a stupid decision 61 years ago--and can't go back-–no such thing as a 'do over" !!!

Filipe you are free to remain ignorant of historical fact.

John A,

If you had anything to dispute in what I said -I'm sure you would.

But since you failed to do so--it's quite obvious can't.

So once again– all you can do is call others ignorant.

John A,

You said,

"Filipe you are free to remain ignorant of historical fact."

TRANSLATION:

Filipe, I have no basis to refute the historical facts you present so I'll just call you ignorant.

Filipe sorry to tell you, your words are not historical fact. You are ignorant. I have posted links to historical fact before, but you refuse to accept them. You prefer your version of history, but your version is not recorded anywhere.

Here is the link again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusite

This shows how Jerusalem was founded by Arabs, before Jews ever stepped foot in the city.

If you can read you will note Jebusites derived from the people of Canaan. These people would be referred to today as Arabic. They were not Muslim at this time, as these people converted to being Muslim when that religion was founded many years later.

So the fact remains the middle east was always Arabic, although the Jews did rally an army under King David to conquer established Arabic cities such as Jerusalem.

The Jewish reign was for a few hundred years. So first there were the Arabs, then for a short period there was the limited rule of Jewish invaders, then the land was re-captured by Arabs and it remained Arabic until the United Nations donated the region to the victims of the Holocaust.

Filipe you can say what you want, but you and your misguided friends can not re-write real history.

John A,

You wrote "If you can read you will note Jebusites derived from the people of Canaan. These people would be referred to today as Arabic."

Jebusites--yes one of the tribes of Canaanites!! You are correct !!!! I've never disputed that.

Did you even bother to read the portion of your wiki link that describes their ethnic origins ????

But please -–post a link or reference that claims that these people are considered Arabs-–if you can find one !!!

Your wonderful reference fails to describe them as Arabs.

And Canaan- "region encompassing modern-day Israel and Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories, plus adjoining coastal lands and parts of Jordan, Syria and northeastern Egypt"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

Again--Never a mention of the word Arab or Arabia associated with the land or these ancient people.

So–please explain how it is that you come to the revelation that "These people would be referred to today as Arabic." ????

By who-you ???

I fail to find any reference anywhere that the Jebusites are considered "Arabs"!!!

And you want to claim that it is me who is attempting to "re-write real history."

Sorry about your luck--you loose again!!

Filipe So you agree that the people of Canaan encompassed modern-day Israel and Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories, plus adjoining coastal lands and parts of Jordan, Syria and north eastern Egypt. But amazingly you still refuse to accept they were Arabic. So what were they Filipe, do you believe they were space aliens?

Filipe are you caliming that the people from Palestine, Jordan, Syria and north Egypt were not Arabic? But at least you don’t argue that these people founded the city of Jerusalem, before a single Jew stepped foot in the city.

Being summer and all..(time in hand!) I opened

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusite

"The Jebusites were a Canaanite tribe who inhabited and built Jerusalem prior to its occupation by King David"....

And under Ethnic origin, (second line)...

"the Jebusites are identified as a Canaanite tribe, which is listed in third place among the Canaanite groups, between the Biblical Hittites and the Amorites.

Then clicked on Canaanite (link) AND Armorites (link)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

(second Paragraph 7th line)

"Canaanite culture apparently developed in situ from the Circum-Arabian Nomadic Pastoral Complex....

and Amorites (link), which lead to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorite

Under Origin:

beginning about 2400 BC, the land of the Amorites is associated with the West, including Syria and Canaan, although their ultimate origin may have been Arabia.

Felipe, The word Arabia is associated to these ancient people...

So we return to the historical fact: Jerusalem was founded by Arabs long before a Jew set foot in the city. The Jews did occupy the city under King David and kept power for a few hundred years. The rubbish that this land has been Jewish for thousands of years remains total rubbish. The UN did donate this land to the Jews after WII. Now the Jews have some claim, as one generation has been born there. But today as has always been, the Jews are a minority group and they should stop promoting the "we were there first and have been there for thousands of years before others" which is historical BS.

Being allowed to practice your faith in a land for thousands of years does not give ownership of the land or make you a majority. Real Jews understand this, but radical Zionist nut jobs do not understand anything other than historical perversion and propaganda.

John A,

It really doesn't matter what I believe about the origins of the Canaanites or Jebusites.

I have found no written or documented evidence that anyone has determined them to be of Arab origins. They were not any of the tribes of Arabia. And they no longer exist–they are ethnically extinct.

But if you could provide a link with this evidence, I could most certainly be persuaded.

Additionally-Egyptians-consider themselves ethnically "Egyptians" not Arabs--"An estimated 76.4 million Egyptians live around the world, but the vast majority are in Egypt where ethnic Egyptians constitute about 94% (74 million) of the total population. Ethnic minorities in Egypt are formed by Nubians, Berbers, Bedouins, ARABS, Beja and Dom."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptians

But don't twist this into one of your "Filipe claims" !!!! I'm posting what I've read!

And for Syrians-- "Modern-day Syrians are an overall indigenous Levantine people. Genetically, they are most closely related to their immediate Levantine neighbours. It was after the arrival of Arabian Muslims and their conquest of Syria that the vast majority of the indigenous inhabitants were culturally and linguistically Arabized, and in most cases, also religiously Islamized. As a result of that Arabization, but independent of Islamization since many remained Christian, Syrians today are commonly referred to as an "Arab" people, by virtue of their current vernacular language, and bonds to Arab culture and history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria#Ethnic_groups

So --Syrians are indigenous-– or some migrated from Arabia during the Muslim conquest in the first half of the 7th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Syria

Again-– not my words-so don't twist this into one of your "Filipe claims" !!!! I'm posting what I've read!

But you've still failed to provide any evidence that the people who call themselves Palestinians are anything more than Bedouins who migrated to the Land of Israel long after the Israelites were living there.

Hope,

That's a nice stretch-but I've read all of that. Nothing you've provided supports any claim that either the Canaanites or the Jebusites themselves were of Arab origins.

From your post "“Canaanite culture apparently developed in situ from the Circum-Arabian Nomadic Pastoral Complex…." -- this explains my point exactly.

"In situ" refers to something that has not been moved from its original place. The Canaanite culture or people did not migrate from Arabia. It developed as a result Bedouin Nomadic migration. But again-these people are extinct.

The claim that John A Jebusite is trying to make is that The Land Of Israel belongs to the Arabs since the Jebusites occupied the Land and founded a city on the site of present day Jerusalem prior to the Israelites living there.

It is really of no consequence or importance in this claim as to the origins of the Amorites. Jebusites were not Amorites. And what you've posted fails to identify Jebusites as being Arabs. Nowhere in your links does it ever say that these people migrated from and were once one of the tribes of Arabia.

But the bottom line is this-- the Jebusites no longer exist, they are ethnically extinct. So there is no ethnic group of people living who can claim they predate the Israelites living in The Land of Israel.

The modern day Palestinian Arabs who live there today are all Bedouins who migrated there from other places long after the Israelites were living there. They have no historical or ethnic connection to the Canaanites or the Jebusites.

Filipe helped prove that the Jews did not establish the city of Jerusalem. Your wish not to define Syrians or Egyptians as Arabic is neither here nor there. What is important is that the ruling majority of this area was never Jewish until the UN donated this land to the Jews out of guilt from a European holocaust.

John A,

1) Jerusalem, built on the site of a city founded by the Jebusites. The Jebusites are extinct and there is no proof whatsoever that they were of Arabic origin.

2) The Jews were there thousands of years before the present day Palestinian Arabs--whose ancestors arrived in the 7th century with the advent of Islam.

3) Being allowed to practice your faith in a land for thousands of years--does in fact validate and prove your presence in the land. Therefore your right of possession. After all-isn't that exactly what the Palestinian Arabs are claiming??? The difference is-as you pointed out-the Jews have been there for thousands of years. And the present day Palestinian Arabs are newcomers !!!

John A,

As I said in my post-- I did not define the ethnicity of either the Syrians or the Egyptians. I only posted the links from which those definitions were found.

So it has nothing whatsoever to do with my wish! They are what they are--read for yourself--if you don't agree with the definition that's your prerogative.

But you’ve still failed to provide any evidence that the people who call themselves Palestinians are anything more than Bedouins who migrated to the Land of Israel long after the Israelites were living there.

I'm glad to see that in your small little mind that- "What is important is that the ruling majority of this area was never Jewish until the UN donated this land to the Jews out of guilt from a European holocaust.

It doesn't appear to me that this is of any importance to anyone other than you. It's nothing more than rhetorical ranting from someone who hates the fact that Israel exists and was legitimized in the civilized world by the UN.

Sorry about your luck !

Move on!

You should listen to your Obama he told you, the Muslim world and the Arabs -" Israel is not going to go away" !

Filipe
You seem to go on a frenzy mode anytime someone points a historical written fact...what's with you?
Where is your sources that Jebusites were not Arabs? Did you really read up (comprehend) who the people of the Canaanites were?

You said-
"Did you even bother to read the portion of your wiki link that describes their ethnic origins ????"
"But please —–post a link or reference that claims that these people are considered Arabs—–if you can find one !!! "

The peoples of Canaan were of both pre-historic origin, as well as the result of numerous immigrations. With the Canaanites as the core, the peoples of today's Middle East developed, both the peoples calling themselves Arabs and the original Jews.

Source:
http://looklex.com/e.o/canaan.htm
Second Paragraph

If you decided they were not Arabs..then by all means they were not Jews either!!!, then what the hell where they?

More rubbish from Filipe. By Filipe's logic the tiny minority of Chinese Christians will be able to claim China as their exclusively land in another 2000 years.

So the Palestinian Arabs are new comers and the former Jebusite inhabitants who come from Syria & Palestine were not Arabs. Filipe where did all these people come from and where did they go. Please tell us your amusing theory, will it include UFOs?

John A,

So now it's about Chinese Christians !!!!! What a hoot !!!!

And what dies "majority" have to do about it ??

I guess that works for you because that's how your European ancestors justified the annihilation of the Native Americans and the occupation of the entire continental US and Canada.

You'll never accept the fact that the Jews have lived in the land of Judea since long before any modern day Palestinian Arab. Why-because you can't stand the fact that they really do have the right to the land.

Sorry about your luck!

Hope,

The Jebusites-It's not for me to prove who they are not. It is for someone else to prove who they are! You just don't get it, do you?

Besides-- the Canaanites, Jebusites and Amorites are all extinct ethnic groups-they do not exist-- therefor they have no claim to the land of Judea or present day Israel or Palestine.

John A,

None of this is "my theory" –so please try not to be confused.

You posted the link above explaining the origins of the Jebusites-– I need not explain further.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusite

Nowhere does it claim the Jebusites were of Arab origins. Nowhere does it claim they came from Syria. And yes they were indigenous to the land of Canaan.

And you ask "Where did they go?" They died out- extinct !! Simple !!! By way of the dinosaur and the sabre tooth tiger-- happens all the time. Not every ethnic group who ever lived on the planet still exists today.

But- if you want to reference the link which you first posted-- "It is unknown what ultimately became of these Jebusites, but it seems logical that they were assimilated by the Israelites"

Is this beyond your comprehension??

WOW !!

So the present day Jebusites are Israelis!!!!

And yes–the Palestinian Arabs migrated to the are in the 7th century with the spread of Islam.

That places them in the land of Israel 2 millenia after the Israelites established their presence in the land of Judea.

Any more questions??

But again-–none of this is my theories !!!!

Filipe you are so lost, it is truly amazing. Please tell about the time I have denied Jews have previously lived in Palestine. I have always said Jews were part of the community and a minority part of this community. This is historical fact. But feel free to get the last word on this blog. It seems very important for you to hide the truth with your endless meaningless blogs.

John A,

Oh, so you agree that the Israelites lived in the land of Judea long before any Arabs??

If this is true-than I fail to see your argument that the land belongs to the Palestinians and the Israelis are living on "stolen land" or "donated land".

Make up you mind! Either the Israelites were there first and have the first right to land or they weren't.

But since they are the only ethnic group of people who can show continuous roots to the land since biblical times-– how can any later migrants or invaders claim any right of possession?

"A minority part" -– who cares??? Except you ??? The fact is -– those who you believe to have been the majority part either no longer exist or have been assimilated into the Israelites.

Filipe your ability to debate is limited to place false words in other peoples mouths.

John A,

But since the Jews are the only ethnic group of people who can show continuous roots to the land since biblical times—– how can any later migrants or invaders claim any right of possession?

University Rector , John A, Flipe,

On one side we have Jews who are claiming that historically the land called now Isreal was owned and governed by Jews
On the other hand you have palestinian or if you like " Muslims " claiming that the land belongs to them and that it has been a holy city for them for centuries.

Lets for the sake of argument assumes one of them is right.
So what if historically the land belonged to you what is important is NOW

It is as if America / Australia / Canada would return their countries now to the people who had it the longest which is Native Indians / Aborginee people in Australia.

Or you do not see Zorasterians returning from around the world and claiming that Iran does not exist and it should be called " Persia " and the religion should be Zorasterian. The could claim that it is their holy land.

The Roman empire at its powerful days took over many countries in North Africa that does not mean they can go back now and the Vatican church and Italy should claim it and call themself " Roman Empire.

Seriously what are the chances of this Happening.

The problem is that both side refused to look into the future and is so determined that because they had right to it some time in history so it should be theirs.

So until both sides refuses to look into future they are both doomed . Each generations would continue to be brainwashed by historians and religious leaders and die or live in fear and terror.

So just keep doing what you are doing since it seems to be very productive for both side?