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Inside the Middle East
January 11, 2009
Posted: 2236 GMT

RAFAH BORDER CROSSING, Egypt (CNN) - It's golden hour - those last few moments of warm sunlight before dusk . Two pairs of Israeli F-16 fighters are wheeling overhead on repeated bombing runs over southern Gaza.

CNN's Karl Penhaul talks with Jawad Harb via Skype.
CNN's Karl Penhaul talks with Jawad Harb via Skype.

With western media banned from Gaza, we're watching from a rooftop on the Egyptian side of the border. It looks like a movie.

But Jawad Harb brings me back to earth- thanks to his laptop and an internet connection that is remarkably still up.

Harb is a Palestinian aid worker for CARE International. He's hunkered down with his wife and six children at his home in Rafah on the Gaza side. My rooftop and his home are perhaps just one kilometer apart.

After a day of trying, I manage to raise him on Skype. He's fired up his generator for a few moments with the dribble of fuel he has left.

We Skype as the bombs rain down. The tools of civilization – voice and video over internet - propel me closer to the barbarity and fear of war - right into Jawad Harb's front room.

I hear the fighter-bombers first. At near-supersonic speeds, Harb hears them seconds later. He hears the bombs explode first at the end of his street. I hear the blast seconds later as the shock wave washes over the border.

I can see the flash and plume of smoke clearly through a camera lens. Harb and his family are too scared to go outside. He calculates the distance of the explosion from his home by how much his house shakes.

All you can hear is the horrible sound of bombing, the house is shaking and the panic and the screaming from the children," he tells me.

"Everybody fears these bombings will fall on our houses and they will die in the demolition of the houses. And then there's the sound of the children crying and asking if they're going to die," he explains.

It's a war that's stripping fathers of their ability to protect their families. Harb cannot honestly tell his kids they're not going to die. Instead he tries to distract them.

I get my six children in one room and they snuggle around me like birds and I tell them stories like my mother used to tell me when I was a child. I tell them this war will come to an end soon and there will be no more killing and peace," he says.

It's a time-honored trick. This is the "Arabian Nights" Gaza-style. Each night a new story to stave off the threat of death.

"It's exactly like the Arabian nights, just like you say. One of my children asked me ‘dad why can't Ali Baba come and say the war will end in Gaza'. All he hopes for is a magic way to put an end to this violent war going on in Gaza," Harb says.

But there's no "Open Sesame", no magic word to stop the fighting and stop the bombs. And Harb says his kids have stopped believing in make-believe.

"It's hard to convince them. Another tomorrow comes and they hear the bombings and about kids being killed and about homes being demolished," he says, his voice crackling electronically over the Skype internet connection.

Our videochat goes on. Harb explains he and his family sleep in their clothes. They haven't had heating for days. When the bombing starts they open their windows. They don't want the blast waves to shatter the glass.

He also tells me their food is running desperately low.

"We rushed out to try to buy some food. We managed to get some macaroni and rice and three or four boxes of cheese," he said. "We have enough for two days but I don't know what will happen on the third day."

When the outlook is so grim just how do you say good-bye? "Stay safe, say hi to the family," I offer up, before running out of commonplaces reserved for better days.

We hang up, as more explosions rock the night.

Posted by: ,
Filed under: Airstrikes • Gaza • Israel


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Professor   January 11th, 2009 2241 GMT

Long live Palestine.... Down with the occupation..... Death to the occupiers....

ahmed   January 11th, 2009 2257 GMT

Look when I read all these comments it tills me no wisdom at all present in the world and from my knowledge of history and the natural development, beside, Israel is like a small island in the Islamic world, so its long term survival is a real question thought history of the Islamic role Jews were protected and given there rights, a vivid example was in Spain under Islamic role when Muslim were defeated in Spain not only Muslims were tortured but also Jews were brutally tortured so they flee to morocco for the safety under Muslim role ……
I believe that Israel a state is the gravest mistake ever done by Jews so they have no more friends when history takes its natural course and who knows the next super power nation will be ….
Even with what is happening know this will make Hamas stronger and Israel will loss again …..When you under estimate your opponent you loose …. Every thing is clear
Israel wants to bring Mr. Burgothy who is in Israeli prison to power as a Palestinian leader as lots of observers predicted so he will look as a national hero, it is bitty that the west and Israel play same games … just to a waken the Giant…WE WILL SEE WHO WILL LAUGH AT THE END

Barham   January 11th, 2009 2319 GMT

""When the outlook is so grim just how do you say good-bye? “Stay safe, say hi to the family,” I offer up, before running out of commonplaces reserved for better days.

We hang up, as more explosions rock the night.""

This is how they are living there now, and some of us here happily defending the killing of Palestinians to continue.

American Jew   January 11th, 2009 2343 GMT

Sorry to see your extremist view, Barhm

There won't be anyone to laugh at this rate, Ahmed.

Moderation, folks...

Hunk   January 11th, 2009 2343 GMT

Barham,

I called a random number on Gaza and was able to speak but I really didn't know how to end the call .

Rod   January 11th, 2009 2345 GMT

Times article:

Israel’s bombardment of Gaza is not self-defence – it’s a war crime

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5488380.ece

Israel’s bombardment of Gaza is not self-defence – it’s a war crime
ISRAEL has sought to justify its military attacks on Gaza by stating that it amounts to an act of “self-defence” as recognised by Article 51, United Nations Charter. We categorically reject this contention.

The rocket attacks on Israel by Hamas deplorable as they are, do not, in terms of scale and effect amount to an armed attack entitling Israel to rely on self-defence. Under international law self-defence is an act of last resort and is subject to the customary rules of proportionality and necessity.

The killing of almost 800 Palestinians, mostly civilians, and more than 3,000 injuries, accompanied by the destruction of schools, mosques, houses, UN compounds and government buildings, which Israel has a responsibility to protect under the Fourth Geneva Convention, is not commensurate to the deaths caused by Hamas rocket fire.

For 18 months Israel had imposed an unlawful blockade on the coastal strip that brought Gazan society to the brink of collapse. In the three years after Israel’s redeployment from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. And yet in 2005-8, according to the UN, the Israeli army killed about 1,250 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children. Throughout this time the Gaza Strip remained occupied territory under international law because Israel maintained effective control over it.

Israel’s actions amount to aggression, not self-defence, not least because its assault on Gaza was unnecessary. Israel could have agreed to renew the truce with Hamas. Instead it killed 225 Palestinians on the first day of its attack. As things stand, its invasion and bombardment of Gaza amounts to collective punishment of Gaza’s 1.5m inhabitants contrary to international humanitarian and human rights law. In addition, the blockade of humanitarian relief, the destruction of civilian infrastructure, and preventing access to basic necessities such as food and fuel, are prima facie war crimes.

We condemn the firing of rockets by Hamas into Israel and suicide bombings which are also contrary to international humanitarian law and are war crimes. Israel has a right to take reasonable and proportionate means to protect its civilian population from such attacks. However, the manner and scale of its operations in Gaza amount to an act of aggression and is contrary to international law, notwithstanding the rocket attacks by Hamas.

Ian Brownlie QC, Blackstone Chambers

Mark Muller QC, Bar Human Rights Committee of England and Wales

Michael Mansfield QC and Joel Bennathan QC, Tooks Chambers

Sir Geoffrey Bindman, University College, London

Professor Richard Falk, Princeton University

Professor M Cherif Bassiouni, DePaul University, Chicago

Professor Christine Chinkin, LSE

Professor John B Quigley, Ohio State University

Professor Iain Scobbie and Victor Kattan, School of Oriental and African Studies

Professor Vera Gowlland-Debbas, Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies, Geneva

Professor Said Mahmoudi, Stockholm University

Professor Max du Plessis, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban

Professor Bill Bowring, Birkbeck College

Professor Joshua Castellino, Middlesex University

Professor Thomas Skouteris and Professor Michael Kagan, American University of Cairo

Professor Javaid Rehman, Brunel University

Daniel Machover, Chairman, Lawyers for Palestinian Human Rights

Dr Phoebe Okawa, Queen Mary University

John Strawson, University of East London

Dr Nisrine Abiad, British Institute of International and Comparative Law

Dr Michael Kearney, University of York

Dr Shane Darcy, National University of Ireland, Galway

Dr Michelle Burgis, University of St Andrews

Dr Niaz Shah, University of Hull

Liz Davies, Chair, Haldane Society of Socialist Lawyer

Prof Michael Lynk, The University of Western Ontario

Steve Kamlish QC and Michael Topolski QC, Tooks Chambers

Rod   January 11th, 2009 2347 GMT

American Jew,
I agree with you we need moderation now and I ask everyone to what what they are saying please it does not help anyones issue. so be sensitive to others so the others are sensitive to you

Akiva   January 11th, 2009 2350 GMT

there is still war in gaza its not over :(

troops are walking in there now :(

but we all know .... israel did lie at us ... did lie at us stright face!
all this pain there is no excuse!
nothing will bring back what is lost!

if i think about i can only cry!
endles pain to all this people in gaza!

how will israel excuse this how will israel legitimate this?

because of rockets?
where did this ockets come from ?
Gaza? Iran? Egypt? ...
they did all come from israel it self!
israel did seed the pain over Gaza with a occupation of Gaza ... with a illegal embargo over gaza ... all this rockets out of gaza come from israel it self!
maybe they did not fire them ... but israel did deny all rights of Gaza ... and these rockets were the answer
that did israel win?
peace in gaza? ... hate around the world?

nothing can bring back what is lost!

are these israelians now proud about theyr history?
do they have peace now?

troops are going now to gaza ... and the isralian women are crying in fear to loose theyr men
is that peace?

what did hapen in gaza?
genocide after a occupation ... after an ileal embargo ... that was a holocaust!
there is no excuse!
that hapened in Gaza?
humanity? human rights? international law?
cruelity... pain over pain .... white phosphours against any law!
nazi methods! fascism at al this Gazans.. lies at all of us!
how will israel bring peace now?
how they will change reality now?

israel have to face the international court of justice!
israel have to stop now imeadiatly !
israel cant bing back what is lost never!
no sorry no excuse no legitimation

the best what israel can do is give land to Gaza ... stoping all lies stoping all illegal embargos .. stoping the occupation
face the true ... face that they are nazis!

israel must go to the international court of justice!
israel should give land to the Gazans ....
and this will never bring back what is lost!
israel should pay to all the injured Gazans for life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
they cant legitimate or excuse this ever !

it is hell

israel....
still choosen by god?
choosen for what?
choosen by god to seed pain?
choosen by god to go into hell?

thre is no excuse ver no legitimation for all what happened!
is this peace now ?
humanity?
international law?

no way !

israel ... god have choosen you to go at http://www.icj-cij.org/ !
THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE!

American Jew   January 11th, 2009 2351 GMT

Thanks for posting the letter above, Rod

American Jew   January 11th, 2009 2358 GMT

Which site shall it be folks?

Wheel chair Warrior #2–otherwise known as a more moderate voice for humanity–is tired tonight and I just want to stay in one blog…

Rod   January 12th, 2009 005 GMT

American Jew tell the others to come here just do it os B and DP doe not come lol

Rod   January 12th, 2009 008 GMT

How Many Divisions?
Uri Avnery

http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html

War – every war – is the realm of lies. Whether called propaganda or psychological warfare, everybody accepts that it is right to lie for one’s country. Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor.
The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions.
An example of this process surrounds the most shocking atrocity of this war so far: the shelling of the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp.
Immediately after the incident became known throughout the world, the army “revealed” that Hamas fighters had been firing mortars from near the school entrance. As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.

Read the whore article American Jew Very interesting one.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 012 GMT

ok Rod

Rod   January 12th, 2009 015 GMT

Robert Fisk: Why do they hate the West so much, we will ask

"Have we forgotten the 17,500 dead – almost all civilians, most of them children and women – in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon; the 1,700 Palestinian civilian dead in the Sabra-Chatila massacre; the 1996 Qana massacre of 106 Lebanese civilian refugees, more than half of them children, at a UN base; the massacre of the Marwahin refugees who were ordered from their homes by the Israelis in 2006 then slaughtered by an Israeli helicopter crew; the 1,000 dead of that same 2006 bombardment and Lebanese invasion, almost all of them civilians?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-why-do-they-hate-the-west-so-much-we-will-ask-1230046.html

The problem now we have to add Gaza 2008/2009 Very sad. we do not even know the numbers. I wonder if we will ever know

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 021 GMT

Rod,

Thanks for the Avnery post. I especially like

"War – every war – is the realm of lies. Whether called propaganda or psychological warfare, everybody accepts that it is right to lie for one’s country. Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor.

The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions."

Rod   January 12th, 2009 022 GMT

Robert Fisk’s World: Wherever I go, I hear the same tired Middle East comparisons
On both sides of the Atlantic the experience has been weirdly repetitive
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fiskrsquos-world-wherever-i-go-i-hear-the-same-tired-middle-east-comparisons-1297595.html

"In Ireland, my favourite journalistic justification for this bloodbath came from my old mate Kevin Myers. "The death toll from Gaza is, of course, shocking, dreadful, unspeakable," he mourned. "Though it does not compare with the death toll amongst Israelis if Hamas had its way." Get it? The massacre in Gaza is justified because Hamas would have done the same if they could, even though they didn't do it because they couldn't. It took Fintan O'Toole, The Irish Times's resident philosopher-in-chief, to speak the unspeakable. "When does the mandate of victimhood expire?" he asked. "At what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?" "

Rod   January 12th, 2009 026 GMT

Lynne,
you are welcome. I likes it a lot this is why I posted that one
when i saw this "Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor" I thought of my friend "American Jew" because he was Branded a traitor by the Blind pro Israeli Propagandists.
Very Sad!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 027 GMT

Im here–got a phone call.

Is this where we agree to be now?

Please confirm

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 028 GMT

Affirmative for me!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 029 GMT

Rod?

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 029 GMT

the pro Israel gang comes from germany!!!!!!!!!!
and california!!!!!!!!!!!!!

they did spread lies and had no chance with it!

they are so fool ... and full of hate
the german gang is maybe a nazi gang who was forcing the antisemitism
and the california gang are wired jews full of hate

be aware if you follow blindly!!!!!!!!!!!

Rod   January 12th, 2009 030 GMT

yes i am here

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 030 GMT

I closed out of theother one, so here I stay for a bit

samy   January 12th, 2009 031 GMT

It is like to hold a population in a big prison and then start bombing it with F16 and artillery and internationally banned gaz. This is the situation. they revenge their past in germany. this is as if a child used to be beaten in childhood; when he grows he starts beating people for no reason.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 031 GMT

Rod, you do post great stuff, yes!

Rod   January 12th, 2009 033 GMT

going to eat something will be back

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 033 GMT

yes Rod is very peace full and he did never follow blindly... he is a real person :D

i did enjoy all his liks and postings :D

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 034 GMT

Please Akiva, I am oriinally from CA, there are many Jews from A who are against this war.

Do not make blanket statements about either side.

samy   January 12th, 2009 034 GMT

however, I notice that cnn has started to be objective by focussing a bit on palestinians who used to be treated as persona nongrata before.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 035 GMT

Akiva,

Watch out! If I didn't know you better, I would be insulted. My mama's family is in Germany. I learned tolerance from both my mama and my paternal half-Irish grandma.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 038 GMT

American Jew
i think you are also interessted in peace...
but i also saw that the pro israel gang did trap you alot!
and there were more then one gang ... a german gang for sure and a calfornia gang also for sure
proooooofed
and the CA gang i dont tell you about them too much
but one thing is sure they are jews and second they are fuuuuuul of hate !

but i also had an eye at you and saw your not really involved to this gang :)

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 039 GMT

I have a funny story to tell.

When I lived in Israel, I was on a bus sitting next to an Israeli settler.

Like Akiva–but from the opposite view–he did not think highly of CA folks either.

He said, and I quote,
"Oh California–sniff–the land of fruits and Nuts!"

I glared at him and said, "I LIKE California, where I was born!"

And he shut up the rest of the trip.

I guess my glare terrified him, the way my computer glare terrifies Dan Perman–LOL

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 041 GMT

Samy,

Quite interesting post if I correctly take you to mean that an abused child knows no other way except inflicting abuse on others.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 042 GMT

Very true, Samy.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 043 GMT

From my POV, I think FEAR and CONTROL are at the crux of the matter with this situation.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 043 GMT

Lynne
100% here was a german gang ... they did play pro israel ... maybe jews maybe german neo-nazis who did sed hate aginst jews
i dont say all people are involved ... but they did trap may people here with fake facts and psych low level shit

they gave me so much informaion that i was able to find them at other sites ... i will not discover where ... but what i saw was schocking at the claifornia side and was so simple dumb at the german side !

i dont say your in that gang
actualy i dont know and dont hink your really in this gang
and not all posters here are in any gang that is sure !

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 044 GMT

AJ,

I'm laughing! Here in Tejas we call CA the granolaland – fruit, flakes, and nuts. And they have some choice descriptions for Tejas. But I LOVE CA!

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 047 GMT

AJ,

You are so right - fear and control. BTW, did you read the Peel Commission Report we were discussing the other night (along with that of the Anglo-American Committee)?

I found a link to the text, if you want it.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 048 GMT

I no longer live there–went thru one earthquake–enough for me, so I live elsewhere now-anywhere and everywhere USA

CA is now too crowded and too expensive but yes I still love to visit!

Barham   January 12th, 2009 048 GMT

American Jew,
Maybe you misunderstood me, i was only commenting on the last lines of the entry article, it has a depth of meaning, read it if you like, and also im calling to end this war by being unpleased of who is defending the bombing. i dont know its an extremist view.

Hunk,
Maybe its not good to tell them take care because its not actually in their hand now, but we can still wish them happy dreams, the only thing they can offer now.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 049 GMT

Akiva,

Like a said, I "know" you. I took no offense. And yes, one must take care to stay out of the "low-fliers" line of fire 8)

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 050 GMT

Yes, I do have it.

The book I have, 'One Country" talks exrensively about it.

They shoulda gone that way originally...

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 051 GMT

The slogan for Hamas is "God is it's target, the prophet is it's model,

the Qu'ran it's constitution: Jihad is it's path and death for the sake of

God is the loftiest of its wish's". Hamas states that its objective is to

support the oppressed and wronged and " to bring about justice, and

defeat injustice, in word and deed". Hamas believes that " the land of

Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (trust) cosecrated for future Muslim

generations untill Judgement Day", and as such, the land cannot be

negotiated away by any political leader. Hamas' covenent states

that "so called peaceful solutions and International confrences" are

" in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistence

Movement", stating "there is no solution for the Palestinian question

exept through Jihad".

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 053 GMT

Hi Barham,
I was reacting to the words you wrote "...happily defending the killing of Palestinians to continue."

Useless words...

Hope   January 12th, 2009 053 GMT

Wow.. Thank you Karl Penhaul for revealing to us, an up close encounter..the daily despair of one Gaza's family ..I have to admit, we are pretty "news sheltered" here in the US, when it comes to the human suffering inflicted on the Palestinian people. May their spirit rise above the smoky cloud of evil, and be free and triumphal of Israel's brutal 60 years occupation.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 054 GMT

Email can really create bigger communication problems than intended

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 054 GMT

Ah AJ,

Should have ... could have ... would have.

Missed opportunities do have a way of coming back and biting you in the rear, wouldn't you say, as well as contributing to the misery of a whole lot of people.

The question is, now that we've looked back, how do we use that knowledge to look forward? How do we convince others that are so full of hate that there are other solutions, when they are so unwilling to give an inch to gain a mile?

samy   January 12th, 2009 055 GMT

I think that israel is doing a serious mistake now. It has rejected thearab peace initiative (land occupied after 1967 and the return of refugees / full normalization with all arab countries). this is a historical offer from arabs. with the damage it has done nowand the black image it has exhibited to the world it will become very difficult to tell the world what it is best at, namely it is a victim. Now, a spalestinians have become victims of the victim, this strategy of sympathy that israel used to exploit will become null and void. Even the US SUFFERS NOW ECONOMICALLY AND NEEDS HELP. Israel should have realized that it had to fit inits direct envirnoment and stop being pain in the neck for the west.

samy   January 12th, 2009 058 GMT

ok

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 059 GMT

Sammy Israel is not a pain in the neck for the West. Israel is Americas friend.

Rod   January 12th, 2009 059 GMT

Thank you guys for your nice comments about me and my posts. I feel Humbled.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 101 GMT

Nick,

Hi!

And you are so pessimistic! The majority of Muslims, or at least the ones I know personally all over the world, do not agree with what you just posted.

If you think about it, " the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (trust) cosecrated for future Muslim generations untill Judgement Day”, and as such, the land cannot be negotiated away by any political leader" is akin to Zionists claims that Jews are God's chosen people, and as such are entitled to all of the land of milk and honey.

It is a crock, and I'm beginning to form the opinion that all forms of organized religion is a very bad thing for humankind.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 102 GMT

Hamas is a slight, very slight discomfort in the neck of the US not Israel

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 104 GMT

Hi Rod,

Did you have a good dinner?

samy   January 12th, 2009 104 GMT

Nick
take this canada from this name. Canada cannot tolerate israelis who kill infants and little girls to take the name of their country. Speak for yourself and go to ghaza to participate in htis crime against the humanity , to use the words of the Human Rights Watch spokesman.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 104 GMT

I can think of one, you know the one with 72 virgins promised if you blow yourself to bits taking out with you non-Islamic innocent people.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 106 GMT

until now i did read the bible and the quran
and in somewas i think i have no to read this jewish book

i did read the bible i thoght much things in the western world is based on the bible so to understand the world i got interesstet in the bible and did read it

then i got interessted in the east culture and i thoght i have to read th quran o understand them ... i fount that the quran is not so bad as any people in the west world thing

now after what happened in the world i think i also will keep a eye at this jewish book ... maybe i will understand why so much things whent wrong ?

if someno here have a good link for me with original stuff about the jewish book i am interessted... hopefull not such a propaganda online shit as many did post hre in the last time ;)

and after all i did read until now ... i was nevr religious or so .... just interessted :)

-------–
Lynne
you did never act offensive ... offnse is never good ... defense is ok ... if it will not end in a holocaust as actualy in israel... dont lt us spectaculate is that was offensive or defensive :(

but if i can say you one thing ... sure you know it allready but i wanna say it :D

allways keep yur eyes open ... never let people blind you ... inform allways yourself .. proof things ... and if not dont take it as fact....
keep as you are ... with love and peace you will gain love and peace
with the opposide you wil gain the opposide
i am happy that you are a thinking about things :)
keep thinking and keep peacefull
so your wellcome ;)

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 108 GMT

now look what happen ... netanyaho is speaking .... :D

Rod   January 12th, 2009 108 GMT

from Uri Avnery's article
I feel it talks about many of us here and around the world who condemn these atrocities:

"A person without imagination, like Barak (his election slogan: “Not a Nice Guy, but a Leader”) cannot imagine how decent people around the world react to actions like the killing of whole extended families, the destruction of houses over the heads of their inhabitants, the rows of boys and girls in white shrouds ready for burial, the reports about people bleeding to death over days because ambulances are not allowed to reach them, the killing of doctors and medics on their way to save lives, the killing of UN drivers bringing in food. The pictures of the hospitals, with the dead, the dying and the injured lying together on the floor for lack of space, have shocked the world. No argument has any force next to an image of a wounded little girl lying on the floor, twisting with pain and crying out: “Mama! Mama!” "

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 110 GMT

Nick,

I am a US citizen, and I can honestly say that Israel's gov't is not a friend of the US. The people of Israel may be, but the Israel's gov't is only using my country for it's own agenda. The friendship is unilateral.

Canada is the US' friend, on the other hand, but does not kiss our ...

samy   January 12th, 2009 110 GMT

Nick
never mix between human rights and religion. Human rights are universal while religion is a matter of culture and/or choice, but I think you don't realize that. I feel sorry for you.Sometimes ignorance kills.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 111 GMT

Sites to check out:

Jon Stewart commentary (Comedy Central)

http://www.thankyoujonstewart.com/

IDF PR War article, SF Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/10/MNGU156LEQ.DTL&tsp=1

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 111 GMT

Sammy
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada, the European Union, the United States, Japan, and Israel. And are banned in Jordon. Austrailia and the United Kindon only list the Military as a terrorist organization. The United States and the European Union have implemented restrictive measures against Hamas on a International level.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 112 GMT

Sites to check out:

Jon Stewart commentary (Comedy Central)

http://www.thankyoujonstewart.com/

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 112 GMT

IDF PR War article, SF Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/10/MNGU156LEQ.DTL&tsp=1

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 112 GMT

Rod,

Well, at least Barak is not lying in his election slogan 8)

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 113 GMT

You may call me ignorent go ahead but in this case you are, I'm not making this up. This is my countries official documentation on the subject.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 114 GMT

Has anyone noticed when you post a site–or rather more than one site–in one email, they moderate you?'

Big Brother is watching us!!

Joan   January 12th, 2009 115 GMT

Nick,

What's your position on the Hamas stuff you posted? It may be their charter / doctrine or whatever. But why would anyone take their word as worth anything.

samy   January 12th, 2009 115 GMT

You dont get it. Im talking about the innocent people that your IDF kills. Im not addressing a political issue here. Gaza is not a state, it is just a small area where people live. To punish a bunch of militants, you have to kill 900 civilian and wound 4000. this is absurd.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 117 GMT

Lynne,
What you wrote in response to Nick is excellent

In my opinion, Nick, you see this in too black and white terms

Joan   January 12th, 2009 117 GMT

I do not know why anyone gets away with using religion to justify anything. Any religion that does not denounce violence in their name can't be real. I guess that's why I don't belong to any religion.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 120 GMT

Joan
If Osama says he's gonna blow the nuclear power plant up tommorow in Chicago should we just not beieve him cause he's a terrorist and they lie sometimes? And not take any higher alert level?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 121 GMT

It is a human issue now, not an extremist religion issue.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 122 GMT

Yes, Joan, I agree

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 123 GMT

AJ,

I loved the Jon Stewart video!!! A bit of laughter amid so much sadness!

Yes, I have noticed the "disappearing" posts. Maybe "they" are paying us per piece. I think CPB's should now unionize!

Joan   January 12th, 2009 123 GMT

NIck,
Of course not, but what's your point?

samy   January 12th, 2009 123 GMT

There is one thing for sure : it seems to me that israel lives an existential crisis. It has not been able to reach ghaza cities with all this bombing; it could not achieve any objective in this war (the declared and the undeclared ones); it embarrasses the US that tries to give it time to finish the massacre and achieve at least one objective. It is fighting with ordinary men; what if it were Iran? And above all, the international community has seen the real ugly face that it has hidden for so long under the victim slogan.

Rod   January 12th, 2009 124 GMT

I has a good dinner thank you Lynne.

Lynne regarding your comment on religion. Islam never claimed that the land in palestine is an exclusive islamic land. Thats why there were 24%Christians at the time of the Ottoman Empire. there were many jews at that time. There is a clear evidence that the conflict is not an islamic-jewish conflict as the pro- israeli propagandist like to present it to be. The truth is that the numbers of Christians Now is less than 2%.
I really have a problem with the ignorance of the Christians rights in Israel and occupied Territories. The christian palestinians are conveniently not mentioned.
this is an article:
PALESTINIAN CHRISTLANS: CHALLENGES AND HOPES
Bernard Sabella
http://www.al-bushra.org/holyland/sabella.htm

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 125 GMT

I'm against Hamas
I just wanted to post this so everyone stops expecting America or anyone to help, and complaining that thier not on these blogs. If an American plane was hijacked by Islamic terrorists or any terrorists for that matter, they would rather blow it out of the sky before negotiating with them, think about that.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 125 GMT

Certainly this crisis right now is a human issue, but it is the result of extremist religious issues, or at least ostensibly.I'm not convinced that's the real reason.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 126 GMT

one filled with Americans aswell

Michael   January 12th, 2009 126 GMT

Why instead of the Israeli army attacking the whole of GAZA don't they give the people on the Israeli side of the border a 100 or so rockets a day to shoot into GAZA as they wish.

Then the world or the UN can't say anything about it. And the retaliation is fair.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 127 GMT

LOL Lynne, I STILL haven't seen a paycheck, let's strike!!

Eric Gallion   January 12th, 2009 127 GMT

I find myself increasingly unable to deal with the extent of the tragedy. Just want to say that this is not in Israel's long term interests in peace.
ALso – a couple great articles, one from wall street journal, one from salon referencing Bill Moyers commentary on PBS:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/10/moyers/index.html?source=newsletter

Joan   January 12th, 2009 129 GMT

Nick.

Good.I can't see how anyone could agree with Hamas. It's too bad the Gazans have dug themselves into such a hole by electing Hamas. I know they didn't all vote for HAmas, and I do sympathize with all who didn't and any who regret doing so.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 130 GMT

Nick,

Do you really think the US would blow the plane out of the sky without even trying to negotiate ?

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 132 GMT

Joan
in the next election Hamas is going to win in both Gaza and the west bank.

samy   January 12th, 2009 133 GMT

Nick
How old are you? I need to know if you want me to continue. I have some doubts about you. sorry, im intuitive especially withthese 70 virgins you mentioned. Either you are not of age or you are retarded.lol

Professor   January 12th, 2009 134 GMT

Joan,

this is not an emotional reaction…. the Palestinians have tried non-violent way to fight their occupation by they still got shot at by Israeli forces… Families still lost children when the children took on the stones to fight back their oppressors… And when you have the superpower giving a green light to Israel to do as it pleases…. billion of dollars, the latest technology and weapons are given to Israel…. What else do you expect from the Palestinians to do? No matter what they did they got killed anyways…. so they better take some Israeli’s with them…. I guess thats what they are thinking…. If you talk to old and young civilian Gazan they tell you they want this fight to continue until they either win their freedom or death… becuase its better than the life they have been living.

Remember who said give me liberty or give me death?

Joan   January 12th, 2009 134 GMT

Solomon,

That would be a real tragedy, becasue Hamas clearly do not care about the Palestinian people.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 136 GMT

Ya ,
America stands by their motto as to not negotiate with terrorists by any means. If we were too start paying ransoms, it would start to become a whole lot more popular. It's the price we pay for Freedom.

Professor   January 12th, 2009 136 GMT

Joan,

How do you know that Hamas does or does not care about the Palestinians?

Do you have someone inside Hamas who is telling you this?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 137 GMT

i CANNOT AGREE WITH hAMAS EXTREMIST VIEWS NOR zIONIST EXTREMIST VIEWS.

As I have said before:

"The mythological idealogy of Zionism and the idealogy of extremists like Hamas MUST die out to make way for the human reality (humanity) of social justice, peace and equality for the Palestinian and Israel people."

Idealogy is death to all, whose ever it belongs too. Idealogy whether religious or secular is a huge problem.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 138 GMT

Rod,

I hope that I am interpreting your post correctly. I know that Islam never claimed the land in Palestine as theirs. What I quoted was from one of Nick's earlier posts concerning what Hamas believed, and why believe either claim if two different holy books gave two different peoples the right to control (AJ, love it) the land and the people.

I am familiar with the demographics of Israel/Palestine since the turn of the century (curiosity kills the cat!) According to a review of UNSCRs since 1967, many resolutions call for Israel to cease (and this is my words and interpretation) artificially manipulating the demographics of the occupied Palestinian territories. (Yes, the word occupied and occupying force is used many times).

What I do know is that everyone seemed to get along before the massive immigrations. I also know that Sharia conveys certain rights to "non-believers" and charges believers with certain responsibilities. Or at least did in the past.

See what any form of extremism does? Unfortunately, people tend to listen to extremism, whether to follow or to accuse.

I'm off to read your Sabella link now.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 138 GMT

Joan
was it a tragedy when Israel elected a terrorist prime Minister that was wanted dead or alive?

samy   January 12th, 2009 139 GMT

joan
Hamas does not expect sympathy from the west. With the harm done by the IDF? The whole arab world sympathesizes with it and despise their dictetors. Isn't that enough?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 140 GMT

Joan,
By their actions, the Israelis do not care about the Palestinians either

...it works both ways

samy   January 12th, 2009 141 GMT

prof
nice question

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 141 GMT

Nick canada.
you said you are a Canadian now you are talking as an American what are you Canadian or American?

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 141 GMT

Hi Solomon,

I still want that dance 8)

Professor   January 12th, 2009 142 GMT

Nick-Canada is just a false human being he is not American Nor Canadian.... he just a pig.

samy   January 12th, 2009 142 GMT

joan
Why do we have to bear your ignorance in all blogs day and night. Have mercy on yourself.

Rod   January 12th, 2009 143 GMT

Second to American Jew

samy   January 12th, 2009 145 GMT

Nick must be in ashelter in sedrot trying to relax by blogging in his laptop near his mama.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 145 GMT

Hi Lynne.
sure but you have to teach me. and I will teach you a Lebanese dance/

Joan   January 12th, 2009 147 GMT

Professor,

You said they have tries non-violent action to fight their occupation. What have they tried? And if it didn't work, why didn't they try somethng else. There are more than 2 choices. The choice is not violent vs. non-violent. It is works vs. doesn't work.

And, again, it's the objective/strategy that's wrong. Why 'fight the occupation', why not 'build a life'. When they have built themselves into a prosperous nation or group, maybe they can get their land back. I am not taking sides on the land issue. I just don't think anyone is getting anywhere this way. Why live in misery fighting a futile cause when you could improve your lives now and maybe revisit the ' cause' later.

Hamas also has the wrong objective. They will not get rid of Israel any time in our lifetimes. So why spend all their money, people's lives. and energy trying. Why not build up their nation and then maybe they can revisit the cause.

And please don't tell they can't do anything because of the blockade. That's only recent. Yes, they have to open their borders, but they are not seriously trying to do that.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 150 GMT

Professor, Are you here?

If so, there are some 'terrorists' quotes from Zionists like Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir, et al that are worse than what you previously posted.

Golda, may her memory be a blessing (to some, at least) at one time stated the Palestinians are not a people.

The Zionists pre and post 1948 were pretty awful, but now they are considered heroes.

Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder

Religious interpretations are in the eye of the beholder

History, too and ESPECIALLY, is in the eye of the beholder.

I try to see both sides...and all sides are guilty and mirrors of each other at one time or another

samy   January 12th, 2009 151 GMT

ok since there are peole like nick and joan here who need to study really hard to keep abreat with normal people, Ill leave. Bye.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 151 GMT

Joan.
.what nation should the Palestinian build?

Professor   January 12th, 2009 152 GMT

Joan,

Any occupation in the history was won over by fighting it back... The racist Israeli occupation is the worst in the history...

Would you accept to live as a non-human being under a racist occupation?

Professor   January 12th, 2009 155 GMT

AJ,

yes I am here.... do you have that quote of Golda?

I know she was aweful but I do not have that quote of her... but I have heard that being repeated by other Jews... rabbis....

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 155 GMT

Rod,

Thanks for the Sabella link. I have it book marked. I must reread - pretty interesting.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 157 GMT

Professor,

How could anyone who cares about their people act the way Hamas is acting ?

AJ,

I agree that the Israelis don't care about the Palestinians, and they should stop what they are doing, but, it is not their job to care about the PAlestinians. THey do not claim to represent them.

Solomon,

The Israelis don't need help, so I don't concern myself with them.

Samy,

'Hamas does not expect sympathy from the west. With the harm done by the IDF? The whole arab world sympathesizes with it and despise their dictetors. Isn’t that enough?'

Hasn't that a;ways been the case. What's different now???

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 159 GMT

Joan,

it really is not simple. You ask good questions and there is s much more here than meets the eye.

As I have 'studied' this conflict over many years, there is still so many pieces of the puzzle missing for me.

It is extremely frustrating!

It is so important to look at the parallel histories...from both perspectives!

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 200 GMT

I read this today I like to share it with you.

January 1, 2009
Dear Mr. President,
I did not vote for you in the Presidential Election because I am Malaysian.
But I consider myself one of your constituents because what you do or say will affect me and my country as well.
I welcome your promise for change. Certainly your country, the United States of America needs a lot of changes.
That is because America and Americans have become the most hated people in the world. Even Europeans dislike your arrogance. Yet you were once admired and liked because you freed a lot of countries from conquest and subjugation.
It is the custom on New Year's day for people to make resolutions. You must have listed your good resolutions already. But may I politely suggest that you also resolve to do the following in pursuit of Change.
1) Stop killing people. The United States is too fond of killing people in order to achieve its objectives. You call it war, but today's wars are not about professional soldiers fighting and killing each other. It is about killing people, ordinary innocent people by the hundreds of thousands. Whole countries will be devastated.
War is primitive, the cavemen's way of dealing with a problem. Stop your arms build up and your planning for future wars.
2) Stop indiscriminate support of Israeli killers with your money and your weapons. The planes and the bombs killing the people of Gaza are from you.
3) Stop applying sanctions against countries which cannot do the same against you.
In Iraq your sanctions killed 500,000 children through depriving them of medicine and food. Others were born deformed.
What have you achieved with this cruelty? Nothing except the hatred of the victims and right-thinking people.
4) Stop your scientists and researchers from inventing new and more diabolical weapons to kill more people more efficiently.
5) Stop your arms manufacturers from producing them. Stop your sales of arms to the world. It is blood money that you earn. It is un-Christian.
6) Stop trying to democratize all the countries of the world. Democracy may work for the United States but it does not always work for other countries.
Don't kill people because they are not democratic. Your crusade to democratize countries has killed more people than the authoritarian Governments which you overthrew. And you have not succeeded anyway.
7) Stop the casinos which you call financial institutions. Stop hedge funds, derivatives and currency trading. Stop banks from lending non-existent money by the billions.
Regulate and supervise your banks. Jail the miscreants who made profits from abusing the system.
8) Sign the Kyoto Protocol and other international agreements.
9) Show respect for the United Nations.
I have many other resolutions for change which I think you should consider and undertake.
But I think you have enough on your plate for this 2009th year of the Christian Era.
If you can do only a few of what I suggest, you will be remembered by the world as a great leader. Then the United States will again be the most admired nation. Your embassies will be able to take down the high fences and razor-wire coils that surround them.
May I wish you a Happy New Year and a great Presidency.
Yours Sincerely,
Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad
(Former Prime Minister of Malaysia)

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 201 GMT

I lived in Israel for two years, but my awareness was raised AFTER I left.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 201 GMT

Joan

Palestine is a own state why they shall join israel?
because you like it?
did you hear about democraty
people elect and we accept it !!!!!!!!!!
if they elect and we dont like it .... we make peace as israel?
occupie a state a country and then put a illegal embargo over it?
so that they must suffer?
and then we wonder why there come stones which turn to rockets????

thats stupid
Gaza have to join nothing because israel say it !!!!!!!!!!!
israel have to accept gaza!!!!!!!!!!
and after all this pain and illegal war israel have to pay gaza!!!!!!!!!!!

Professor   January 12th, 2009 201 GMT

Joan,

You are talking about Hamas and their people as if they are two different things....

These Hamas members are a large segment of the Palestinian people.....

Its like you are saying the Republican Party did not care about the Americans when Bush started his war on Iraq....

Rod   January 12th, 2009 202 GMT

Lynne,
I knew these were not your words. I was just making comments about the claim that it is Islamic aggression against Jews.
What impresses me is that you are so well informed.
and yes "Sharia conveys certain rights to “non-believers” and charges believers with certain responsibilities." Islam calls Christians and Jews Brothers of the book (if I remember the exact translation) same for many other minorities.
Actually some claim that Israel's Establishment of Hamas was to serve the purpose of making the conflict a religious issue.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 202 GMT

Joan.
and I dont the Palestinians need your help.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 203 GMT

Professor,

Please don't try to use history to justify things. History is just facts and events , good and bad. If everything just followed history, we'd all be living in caves.

No, I would not like to live as a non-human being. Are you saying that all Palestinians have lived as non-humans for ?? years??

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 203 GMT

898 death and 45% women and children ???
join israel???
are ou crazy???????

was it noth enough ??
give gaza free ... dont force a world war 3

send the head of netanyaho to gaza and tha half of israel to pay the pain ...
and the half of the jewish bank to pay the medicine !!!!!!!!!!

Joan   January 12th, 2009 206 GMT

Solomon.

Maybe nation was the wrong word. How about they build lives in Gaza, and on the west bank ?

Professor   January 12th, 2009 206 GMT

Joan,

Have you seen the wall Israel building around the Palestinians?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 206 GMT

I lived well there, and yes, when one actually lives there, it is very scary–on all sides

There was much I did not see.

But I did notice how in Israel media, Arabs never had a name or face...never.

I got scared and I was NO WHERE near any of the conflict–it was like living in a bubble in Herzliya.

But day and night, those war jets flew overhead, spnic booms, IDFsoldiers everywhere

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 206 GMT

Hi Solomon,

I have a better idea ... you teach me your Lebanese dance.

I have been furthering my education this afternoon with some research. What a beautiful, resilient country your is! I was amazed to find that there are as many UNSCRs concerning Israel and Lebanon as there were about Israel and the occupied Arab territories. Yes, the UNSC called the Palestinian territories occupied in all the resolutions starting with 242 up until the resolutions starting in 2001. Interesting that this coincides with the Bush Jr. admin.

So what words of wisdom do you have for us tonight?

Professor   January 12th, 2009 208 GMT

Joan,

how would you like to live in Gaza and have half of your family in the West Bank and you cannot go from one side to the other becuase of that wall?

What kind of life is that?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 209 GMT

demolition of Palestinian homes–constant–since 1948.
Deir Yassin and other Palestinian villages

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 210 GMT

Nick-Canada,

You also forget that Mashal was poisoned by the Mossad on the street of Amman, and it was King Hussein of Jordan who equated the whole peace process to the death of a 'Single Jordanian" who was Mashaal himself, it was the intervention of Clinton who demanded that Israel give the counter injunction to save his life.

Jordan at that time chose to ask for the release of Yassin the crippled man who was on Israeli prison for ten of years to be released , otherwise the king could have asked for any thing he wants but he chose to release him instead, I think that Hussien seen that Hamas will come to power and myabe wanted them to be part of the "peace process"

This is one more act of terror from Israel. for Jordan its was a very bad decision to expel them from Jordan under the present king Abdulallah.

Now they are in Syria and its good fro them.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 210 GMT

Solomon,

I like the letter to Obama that you posted.

Professor   January 12th, 2009 211 GMT

How can you build a life when Israel will not give a Palstinian a permit to build a house and if he builds a house anyways an Israeli bulldozer will level the house on its occupants heads...?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 212 GMT

Anyhow, I was in Israel from 1990-1992.

A pretty 'peaceful' lull at that time, but still...

Professor   January 12th, 2009 213 GMT

Joan,

You are talking as if you lived in a vacum.... When did you start getting involved in this conflict?

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 214 GMT

"Please don’t try to use history to justify things"

Joan.

that is the most sensible thing I have read from you.

Why then the Jews used history to uproot the Palestinians?

Joan   January 12th, 2009 214 GMT

Akiva,

I do not understand what you are saying. I don't like Isreal, but other than that I can't respond.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 214 GMT

Rod,

"Actually some claim that Israel’s Establishment of Hamas was to serve the purpose of making the conflict a religious issue."

Hmm, interesting. I could see how you could kill 2 birds with one stone, so to speak. Hamas to fight the PLO, and Hamas the terrorists bent on destroying Israel to get extremist Christian support in the US. Political pressure and $$ - wow! After all, it says (and I believe it is Exodus, but don't quote me - haven't read the Book in a long time) that the Hebrews are God's chosen and were given the land of milk and honey.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 218 GMT

Solomon,

I'm with Joan - that was a great letter.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 218 GMT

Professor,

I WOULD say that bush didn't care about the American people when hestarted the Iraq war. Strategicaly, it was a very stupid thing to do. Maybe he thought he cared, but obviously, he didn't think right.

Professor   January 12th, 2009 219 GMT

Zionism is a racist ideology..... Israel is a racist state....

I am ending my shift here with these two comments....

have a good one everybody.... except those who are supporting Israel... have a horrible terrible one.... ;)

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 219 GMT

It is VERY complex.

I had a friend who was an Israeli Arab–they have a different 'PC' name now–uhh, is it Palestinian Israeli?–anyhow an Arab citizen of Israel.

It was like the 1950s US south! Everywhere he went, he had to show his Identity–the identity card imprisons all in Israel, if you ask me!

He was treated like a 2nd class citizen everyhere he went..and he wasa citizen.

Its a very different world for all over there!

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 219 GMT

"given the land of milk and honey"

T make its natives as cheap labor for the boat riders coming from across the ocean and to turn it into a shooting ground on the name of the chosen....

Professor

How many were there with Moses PBUH when he crossed the sea ... its true that they were around 200 to 300.

Rod   January 12th, 2009 220 GMT

Joan,
I really suggest that you watch this video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589&ei=BdMbScX5OafcqAOF1NHGBw&q=occupation+101
An excellent resource to understanding the conflict.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 221 GMT

isael did lie all the time ...
israel did tell the west world that hamas are in a religois war
israel did never say that they did poisen in to the gaza water
did never say that the embargo over gaza was illegal
did never say that they kill civilians

and what is true?
was it a religious war?
was it humanity to poisen the water?
was it legal to put a embargo over gaza?
did they not kill civilians

898death 45% children and women!!!!!!!!!!!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 222 GMT

Just check out both historical perspectives–it is not black and white on either side.

Professor   January 12th, 2009 222 GMT

see you said Bush.... you did not say the Republican Party....

Well Hamas fighters are a wing a faction from Hamas the party....

So who are you going to blame?...

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 223 GMT

yeah i agree with the Prof ... a terrible night to all israelian nazis!!!!!

Joan   January 12th, 2009 225 GMT

Professor,
I do not live in a vacuum. You canot live in this world without being aware and having a position on the middle-east conflict. However, I will admit that in my younger years, I usually tuned out when there was news of mid-east conflict. Why, becasue it's not news, it's the status quo., and, it just goes on and on and on. When you are busy building yourlife, you don't expend enery on futility.

I listen more now because I'm retired and have more time.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 228 GMT

AJ,

I heard, though I don't know for fact since I've never had one, that those identity cards also have on them whether you are Jewish or non-Jewish. Do you know whether this is true?

I have a question to pose, gang. Suppose, after 911, instead of Shrub Jr. declaring you are with us or against us, the US had gone to the Muslim nations and asked for justice afforded non-believers under Islamic law, as well as taking Iran up on the offers to assist finding the people that committed the crime?

Do you think that the US' image would have improved to the extent that if we had requested, Muslim nations' could have convinced Hamas to stop the rockets?

Professor   January 12th, 2009 229 GMT

While you were busy building your life..... Palestinian have been loosing their lives.... their homes.... their families.... their farms....

Its the occupation Joan....

And without ridding of it the Palestinians will not have a life.

Long Live Palestine.... Down with the Occupation..... Death to the Israeli Defeated Forces.

Rod   January 12th, 2009 230 GMT

Lynne,

Yes it is two birds (probably more ) with one stone.

American Jew.
I hosted an Arab Israeli Family in September.
when I was taking them to the airport to drop his wife because she was leaving earlier. He was telling her what to do when she enters Israel and how the security will investigate her and what to do when they hold her for questioning. he was telling her they will try to get on your nerves and do not let them ...etc

In my mind I was thinking this is another form of terror. so I asked him do you guys have to go through that every time you travel? they responded "yes" every time on our way in and our way out.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 231 GMT

a funny cartoon in a Lebanese newspaper.

the Israeli soldier is shouting at the UN soldier saying dont be an anti
semite. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=alakhbar&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

Professor   January 12th, 2009 231 GMT

Lynne,

It is true... even car license plate are marked so you can tell who is who.... certain license plates are not allowed on certain roads.... its a horrible life.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 232 GMT

Professor,

Okay, the Republicans, Bush, anyone who agreed with the war – none of them were thinking ahead, or really thinking of America's best interests. But I do think that Bush wanted the war, and he is commander-in-chief.

Rod   January 12th, 2009 236 GMT

Ok guys. I will leave now. Glad that you all have a very productive discussion.

Q & A on Hostilities between Israel and Hamas

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/12/31/q-hostilities-between-israel-and-hamas

I will leave you with this from Uri Avnery:

"So it went with the other atrocities. Every baby metamorphosed, in the act of dying, into a Hamas terrorist. Every bombed mosque instantly became a Hamas base, every apartment building an arms cache, every school a terror command post, every civilian government building a “symbol of Hamas rule”. Thus the Israeli army retained its purity as the “most moral army in the world”."

you all take care

Joan   January 12th, 2009 237 GMT

AJ,

You keep telling me it is complicated. Have you ever heard the expression "Beyond knowledge is simplicity", or to paraphrase, if you know what you're talking about then you can simplify it. If you tell me you think it is complicated, you are telling me you do not realy understand it.

I am not suggesting that the solution is simple. But we have to deal with reality today.

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 237 GMT

I have a question to pose, gang. Suppose, after 911, instead of Shrub Jr. declaring you are with us or against us, the US had gone to the Muslim nations and asked for justice afforded non-believers under Islamic law, as well as taking Iran up on the offers to assist finding the people that committed the crime?

Do you think that the US’ image would have improved to the extent that if we had requested, Muslim nations’ could have convinced Hamas to stop the rockets?

Possibly. It certainly couldn't have hurt could it?.....
Look at what most see now, and add in the question as it would have been...I don't think we'd have so much...misunderstandings.
But that would be nixed I think as I think about OUR role and the US's own policals on the scene. I think it wouldv'e taken more scholorly men to make that call. AND the US ....we do certainly indeed have a shortage of that in office.

racasel   January 12th, 2009 238 GMT

Should we ask Israel to let Hamas kill 800 of their citizen so it will be balanced.?.. where were you guys when Hamas were killing Israelites and even their fellow Palestinians? Why were you not saying anyting then?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 238 GMT

Yes, Lynne to your question...all ID cards id as Jew, Muslim, etc. It imprisons ALL-even Jews!

And yes on the searches going into and leaving Israel.

I, myself have gone thru it–and I am Jewish!

A non-Jewish friend of mine went through it–strip searches, folks–when he entered Israel from India, He is not even politically active, and he went througn a 4 hour, grueling, dehumanizing, search.

The 'searches' are designed to humiliate, more than anything!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 239 GMT

Oh, and intimidate, too.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 245 GMT

Sarah.

(1)not one of those Muslim countries is ruled by Islamic law.

(2)non of these terrorists were sent by any Government.

(3)about hamas rockets why dont you ask Israel to stop killing children and stop stealing palestinian land.

(4) if you hate Muslims can you keep that hate to your self instead of showing your Ignorance.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 245 GMT

Joan, I am not at all trying to be condescending.

Just sharing my experiences and observations.

I agree with what you say on one level, but going deeper is another thing.

It is simple and it is not simple.

The problem is the human aspect in the equation–the human condition definitely complicates simple things!

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 246 GMT

usa did support this war with weapons and money .... thats more woerse then a drugdealer
they sell weapons to kill

bush .... den haag

israel is doing a holocaust
den haag
pay for it on earth and in hell

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 249 GMT

UGH, I need a break. Keep up the dialogue all.

Maybe I'll check back later.

As Debs has expressed

Shalom v' Salaam

oldtimer   January 12th, 2009 251 GMT

So the Israeli genocide venture into Gaza has almost met it's goal. How nice, i'm thinking that these Israeli's need to face the world court for crimes against humanity.

Hope   January 12th, 2009 251 GMT

Song for Gaza...

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 253 GMT

Sarah,

I always thought that my gov't missed a great opportunity amid all the carnage to build bridges. Having lived in countries that have large Muslim populations, I thought that this would be the best route to take. As you said, it couldn't have hurt, and may have even been viewed as a sign of respect.

To be honest, I expected a 911 long before 2001, judging from my travels and some extremist rhetoric I was hearing. No one could have stopped what happened. But the US had a very golden opportunity then to prevent what is happening now. Too bad that there was more interest in defense subcontrators, engineering firms, and a few very well-placed politicians (which will remain nameless 8) ) making a whole lot of money off 911.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 254 GMT

Well, I have to go now, time to sleep. Mohammed, you're not here, but you'll be glad that I;m following your advice. NOt becasue you suggested it, but becasue I really do need to sleep.

I thought we were talking about the people of Gaza, but now we are onta the terrible life of Arab Israeli's. In any case, I can't believe that anyone in that area has a good life now.

And when they run out of arguments, people keep saying 'it's the occupation'. Sorry, tht's a broken record. Try something else.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 256 GMT

Solomon,

Did you see my post about US actions after 911? As a Muslim, what is your take on my idea? Or am I way off base?

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 301 GMT

Solomon

I think you misunderstood where I was coming from?

I think about US involvement with in the middle ease since the Ottoman fell and also a little of brit involvement.
I was sort of leading in that direction, that instead of the US using or demanding per say alot of allegience from ME leaders, then When there was a real issue of need in a more global world of 1+2+3=1.....persay While the US is guilty of arogance, sometimes I think ME leaders are guilty of poor leadership.
Uh um, My husband is of Palestinian Decent, which makes my children so.......
While, I may not know them, those in Gaza, and the west bank and Jeruselum. the extended family...they do exist and they are family.

Salamalaykum

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 302 GMT

"justice afforded non-believers under Islamic law,"

Sarah.

that sentence tell me all about you.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 305 GMT

AJ,

I can'tleave without one more comment.

I don't agree that it is the human condition that makesit complicated. The human condition is bad but that is relatively easy to fix. I think it is the human (or, not so human ) attitudes that make it dificult (not necessarily complicated).

Professor,

You have gone in a circle back to the occupation. But you still have not defined the area. How can you argue about something you can't define ?

Audrey June   January 12th, 2009 306 GMT

Mr. Obama:

I watched you in the year 2004 and cried when I listened to your speech about the United States of America. I was surprised that you were running for President of the United States of America, but hey I was pulling for you – you spoke with such eloquence, grace and sincerity; I watched faithfully when you announced your candidacy in Springfield, Illinois, I cried again. I watched when you were vilified by the press for Reverend Wright – I cried for you again, that people in your own Country could sabotage you the way they were; but you came through, you delivered that wonderful “race” speech in Pennsylvania – yes I copied it, yes I listened to it at least three times on the Internet, yes I discussed it with people at my work and made them aware of your sincerity for the oppressed and down-trodden, and yes, I cried all throughout the speech, and I cried every time I listened to it (my husband thought we could keep the paper tissue factories in business as long as you were running – because I was always crying); I followed your campaign through all the heartbreak and the wins; and I cried for you; I listened to them vilify your wife; and I cried for you again; (I think she is quite beautiful and that yellow outfit she wore on Letterman was wonderful);

You are now the President-Elect of the United States of America – your victory speech was stupendous; yes, I cried again. I contacted my son in Ohio to see if he could get me some inaugural tickets to your inauguration (I live on Vancouver Island – furthest West Island in Canada) and I was prepared to pay my own expenses, fly down, get a hotel and enjoy the festivities; I cried, because he didn’t know how to obtain those kinds of tickets; but that’s o.k. because my husband (good man that he is and non-political) has created a DVD with your wonderful pictures on it and has it all ready to record all your events on January 20th, 2009;

Unfortunately, in the last 16 days, Israel has run amuck again and as per normal (some of us actually read history and other news) and is out there killing Palestinians with the blessing of the United States of America; and I am crying because you said that “Israel has a right to defend itself”. Well Mr. Obama, the Palestinians also have a right to defend themselves; they are in an Occupied concentration camp, controlled completely by Israel. Now, you being the champion of human rights and the oppressed, I was expecting some support for the Palestinian people as were a lot of people in the rest of the World – but you have become silent or you repeat “there can only be one President at a time in the United States”. That last statement I agree with, however, can you not speak as an individual of the atrocities that are being committed against the Palestinian people. We, the people, around the World and in the United States spoke out, wrote letters and defended you when you were being vilified – can you not defend the Palestinians – we, the people of the World will support you if you do and please so I can stop crying.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 307 GMT

asent it .... hmmm ... this german guy which did ask if USA is crazy to do a war because of theroy ... i think it was this german leader joshka fischer or what ever his name was

did bush let his people suffer in a war because of theory????
bush go nuthouse!!!!!!!

so is a theory war better then a "religious" war which is forced by USA with no religious reason?

nuuuuttttthouseee!!!!!!!!!!!

8years ... are americans masocists?

what a comedy????

Bill   January 12th, 2009 308 GMT

I just read an interesting atricle:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424929369&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

It seems Iran is warning the Islamic terrorists of Hamas not to accept any ceasefire. If the Hamas Islamic terrorists accept a ceasefire, Iran will cut off their weapons and money.

It seems that Iran is willing to fight to the last drop of Palestinian blood. Iran is just using the Palestinians as cannon fodder to take a gullible world's attention off of their plans to create nuclear weapons.

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 308 GMT

Lynne,

Yes, I think it was just a matter of time also. It was bombed before...
also, the going ons in the me and other places...

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 310 GMT

January 12th, 2009 302 GMT

“justice afforded non-believers under Islamic law,”

Sarah.

that sentence tell me all about you.

using the COMMENT box, and forgot to put more space between the "quoted Comment" and mine.
MINE was the last commented paragraph. :(

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 312 GMT

Solomon,

“justice afforded non-believers under Islamic law,”

That was from me. This is the question I asked was this:

have a question to pose, gang. Suppose, after 911, instead of Shrub Jr. declaring you are with us or against us, the US had gone to the Muslim nations and asked for justice afforded non-believers under Islamic law, as well as taking Iran up on the offers to assist finding the people that committed the crime?

Do you think that the US’ image would have improved to the extent that if we had requested, Muslim nations could have convinced Hamas to stop the rockets?

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 312 GMT

I'm the believer in as long as you believe what you believe and don't harm me or mine and leave me to believe what I believe all is well. AnD I won't bother you with I believe...

It's the way a true believer is, no?

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 319 GMT

Solomon,

Love your cartoon. I am so ignorant - is that arabic the words are written in? I really must learn the language before I leave this world.

Maybe you can help me pronounce the name of my mare. Her registered name is Bahie Waahimah. I was told it translates to beautiful fantasy. Is this correct?

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 322 GMT

Bill

iran told his people to not go at war in gaza!!!!
iran did not allow them to support the hamas and did the people not let out of the country!!

this ....
whyle israel was planing a attak against Iran and is still ponting at iran
this while usa did plan a attak at iran .... but found that it is better not to do a war with iran

mohammad   January 12th, 2009 326 GMT

the Israel officials say that hamas fired rockets to Israel during the last 8 years and Israel did not do any thing ....
that is a lie ....during the last 8 years
during the time between 29/09/2000 to 01/08/2006
1670 civil victim in Gaza by the IDF.
421 children in Gaza.
290 militants Assassinated 202 civilians not targeted .
that is why hamas was firing the rockets.....the mighty rockets that killed ......14 .
the rockets that was taking as a bridge to make this Holocaust in Gaza

Bill   January 12th, 2009 326 GMT

Akiva

What is your point? Read the article.

Damian   January 12th, 2009 327 GMT

**THIS IS THE TRUTH!!!***
Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel's part for whatever reason, the following two sentences really say it all:

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.

If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 327 GMT

bill.

I wouldn't believe that one hundred percent.
as Press tv has stated that Israel will suffer worse defeat than in lebanon.

on another note:
Why is it so upsetting for people that IRAN support any country?
Should they ask permission first before trade agreements, talks, diplomacy are even?
honestly, just waite. just waite until what comes around goes around. How;s that dish?

earle,florida   January 12th, 2009 331 GMT

This is what war creates,when it embarks to disengage mankinds rationale, and consciousness from consequences calculating ramdom religious philosophies! The dark-side of hedonism masked by a algorhythm design to hold "God Ransom",outside the relm of reality,...are the" Devil's Tool's"! Wisdom is a rare commodity in today's world!

oldtimer   January 12th, 2009 331 GMT

So the Military finally thinks that maybe they have murdered enough children and woman, so they can now call their mission a success. Must be nice to have no conscience or guilt at what they are doing. This is no more then shooting fish in a barrell. But i guess they must be cowards deep down. Hezbollah kicked their ass in the last little war they started.

Bill   January 12th, 2009 343 GMT

Sarah -

So far it seems that Israel is kicking the behinds of the Islamic terrorists in Gaza. The fact that these war criminal cowards are hiding behind women and children to maximize civilian casualties is sad and shows how much Islamic terrorists care about life, especially Muslim life.

Iran is supporting worldwide Islamic terrorism. That, by itself, is pretty disturbing. I agree that all the hate that they are paying for will come back to haunt them. I hope soon.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 345 GMT

IDF explains white phosphours at civilians
and now they explain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

youtube.com/watch?v=BiR62yXICyE

Den Haaaaag
nuthouse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 345 GMT

Egypt sees progress in ceasefire talks with Hamas

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424930097&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 348 GMT

CNN

youtube.com/watch?v=BiR62yXICyE

whats that??????????????????
you dont bring it up?????????????

whats about international law??????
not interesssting?
censoring?
did IDF get this weapons by USA???????????????

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 348 GMT

Bill,

"Israel is kicking the behinds of the Islamic terrorists in Gaza"

827 children s is exemplary of the bravery if vs Cowardly.

Bill   January 12th, 2009 350 GMT

Hunk – Are you saying that 827 children are Islamic terrorists? That is disturbing, indeed. I hadn't heard that.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 354 GMT

Bill,

No comment

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 402 GMT

Cartoonist

Says this :

Israel has the reich to defend itself

On the background the Nazi regime and flag flying behind on a red background.

I tried to post the link but CNN will not show it.

Bill   January 12th, 2009 407 GMT

Here's a cartoon that CNN can show:

http://today.excite.com/toonedview/id/2.html

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 407 GMT

hunk ... post the link
take http away
sptlit the link ... put space between letters thants

jim   January 12th, 2009 408 GMT

everyone in this forum, contact your senator and representative and tell them its time to eliminate all aid for economic and miliatry to israel.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 414 GMT

Israel has the reich to defend itself
On the background the Nazi regime and flag flying behind on a red background.
I tried to post the link but CNN will not show it.
Itself www. mahjoob. com/en/archives/ view.php? cartoonid=2603&Y=2009&M=01

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 416 GMT

Bill,

Honestly.... Israel is doing HORRIBLE.
They have around 30 injured and how many killed?
With what kinds of weapons? What kind of strategy, planning etc?
pffftt... they may have won but only temorarily and only to keep up moral for the cause....what ever that is,
we can all agree that Hamas is not finished by far. Look the protests...you don't think those of the mind set are possible extremists? How about the kids injured/disfigured and say...what kind of life can I have now? They will be the ones most suceptable to suicide programming(shudder)

and again....the tide is coming. most, if not all just don't see it. Even I can only put up with seeing it for so long...and I CAN TURN IF OFF!

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 418 GMT

Akiva,

Remove the space or click from the website on "political cartoon" and press previous till you reach the cartoon.

His name is Emad Hajaj he is a Palestinian and for me he is the best. but too much mockery that make me don't know to laugh or cry.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 419 GMT

Yup, we can always turn it off, but the Gazans cannot.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 420 GMT

24/7 for them, non-stop.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 423 GMT

Hi AJ
Hi All

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 424 GMT

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/2009111155618728529.html

Bill   January 12th, 2009 425 GMT

jim –

I've actually done the opposite. I've contacted my representatives asking for them to support Israel with everything they need to defend themselves against Islamic terrorist aggression.

I would imagine that you would feel differently had you survived the bombing of the World Trade Center or had rockets fired at your house for the last 8 years. Israel has a duty to protect itself and its citizens from constant Islamic terrorist aggression. The US government has the same duty to its citizens.

The more Islamic terrorists that we fight and kill in the Middle East, the fewer we need to fight here on American soil.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 425 GMT

Just heard from friend...900 Gazans dead...Operation may be "extended 20 more days...until Israel achieves its objectives."

And what the hell are those objectives??

Israel says, "Be patient..." For what ...????...900++ MORE DEATHS????

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 427 GMT

Any regulars here??

Rod, Lynne, someone, !!

ground me out here, this is crazy nuts, the world is insane!!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 429 GMT

Linda!

Fellow wheel chair warrior!

Hello from #2

Linda   January 12th, 2009 429 GMT

AJ,
they have been saying for a few days that they are going into phase 3. I hope it looks better than phase 2

Bill,
I wrote my government officials also, and so did A J.
I think we have something to say, and I hope they listen

Do any of you know if Dan went to the NYC protests today? I guess it was a big ta do

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 430 GMT

What the hell is phase 3 ?

And what the hell are theit objectives, the world be hanged??!!

shah   January 12th, 2009 430 GMT

israel denies the use of white phosphorus.
israel denies violating the international law.
israel denies the killing of innocent civilians.
israel denies violating egyptian air space.
and the denial will go on...
While the world is witnessing the annihilation of palestinians in gaza, we are sistematically being deceived by the information we get.
How sad !!

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 431 GMT

the objectives are genocide
and now acctualy clean gaz ... hide every thing what point on a dirty war
now they must clean all white phosphorous rest
kill everyone who can speak about that
and theymust hide all the deth bodies
thats about objektives
they have to fake now facts and fool us as ever
IDF the Israel Death Force

Linda   January 12th, 2009 431 GMT

A J!
#1 here and ready for duty!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 432 GMT

I salute you, #1!!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 432 GMT

Evidently Phase 3 is what they are calling, sending the ground troops in to fight, gun to gun, basically.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 434 GMT

I cannot stay here if the majority is for this

Linda   January 12th, 2009 437 GMT

It looks like a lot of our friends were on earlier, but a lot of new people too. It looks like it got really nasty.
I have been on reading for about an hour. Then when I saw you, I said something. I'm not stooping to that, you know?

Bill   January 12th, 2009 438 GMT

Sarah -

I see it differently. Given the scope of the conflict, the amount of Israel's losses is minimal. I know that every Israeli life is precious and I grieve for those lost and injured. But Israel is doing the right thing. Hamas has been dealt a serious blow. Since Hamas would rather have all the Palestinians in Gaza die before stopping their aggression, Israel will need to fight until Hamas is destroyed. I see this as a sad but necessary thing, like cancer surgery.

Some Palestinians will certainly become suicide bombers. Some will stop and think about whether the additional suffering they cause will further their agenda. Some of this is inevitable from a society that poisons the minds of its very young children with racism, hate, and intolerance. Until they stop this practice, their children will always be at war with somebody. This is something that we can not fix. Only the Muslims can change they way they treat their children.

Palestinians are beginning to see that Hamas has ruined their chances at getting their own homeland. Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians and what did they do to it? They dug up sewer pipes to make Kassam rockets to fire at Israeli civilians. They ruined the land and turned it into a hellish Islamic terrorist encampment. They elected a violent Islamic terrorist government who took complete control in a coup. Their elected government wants to completely destroy Israel.

Israel is unlikely to make the same mistake twice. Giving land to the Palestinians has turned into a horrible mistake that should not be repeated.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 440 GMT

Linda, I hear ya, it gets overwhelming

Linda   January 12th, 2009 442 GMT

I spent a lot of time in my greenhouse, today just trying to relax. Sometimes I feel as though I can not even breathe.
Did you do anything interesting today?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 443 GMT

Spent too much time in here, I'm afraid.

Greenhouse sounds like a great place to atch your breath!

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 443 GMT

Bill

israel is doing the right thing???
how dumb????
if ll hmas are deth you must atomize your self
the whole world will wipe israel
cant you see how may people allready hate you around the world???
its not the question if israel will die!!!
the only question is the question of time!!!

and all your soldiers who go in now there and see wht they have done ... they will find peace in a nightmare!!!!!!!

you will see

be proud of what you have done ... be proud!!!
go to helll!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 446 GMT

There's no changing minds, whatever 'side' one is on.

Wonder why I am doing this?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 447 GMT

Get info out, but

...does it make a difference?

Does it matter?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 448 GMT

I was hoping to get onto here and see respectful discussions, intelligent information, and check on Dan and see if he was in that mess in NYC. Like I said earlier, I'm about to through in the towel, on this blog and humanity

Linda   January 12th, 2009 450 GMT

Every night at about this time, I look at the clock and know that it is morning in Gaza, and I wonder what it looks like there today. :(

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 450 GMT

I bet Dan did go...

Bill   January 12th, 2009 451 GMT

Akiva -

The Jews have received death threats for thousands of years. They are still here and stronger than ever. Most of those threatening the Jews are long gone. What does that tell you?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 452 GMT

I don't even think it is changing anyone's mind, most won't even look at the other side of the argument, or concede a point that has been maken, even when it is proven. I just don't know what is happening to humanity.
My motto is: Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning how to dance in the rain", It's raining a lot lately. I'm tired

Nona   January 12th, 2009 452 GMT

Greetings friends and all lovers of peace.

Bill   January 12th, 2009 453 GMT

Greetings Nona!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 453 GMT

Nona!
I'm so glad to see you. :)

Nona   January 12th, 2009 455 GMT

Hello Linda, Bill, AJ and all! I am glad to see you all!

Bill   January 12th, 2009 455 GMT

Linda -

I guess a fanatic is someone who won't change their mind and won't change the subject.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 456 GMT

Well, you are right, Linda.

I think I have done all I can do today.

Hi Nona.

Wishing all a good night!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 456 GMT

AJ,
I'm worried for Dan because he was so upset after what some people said to him about the ovens. I am hoping he did not go, I don't want him to get hurt or arrested. He is very passionate, and this is so close to his heart, I feel so bad for him. He has really come under attack.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 456 GMT

Bill

it tells me that your a stupid nazi

Nona   January 12th, 2009 457 GMT

Did you guys see the discussion tonight on "DL Hughley Makes the News?" It's the first time I've ever watched that show and got something out of it. They had a good conversation with a rabbi and a Muslim woman and they were all agreeing! Really good discussion.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 457 GMT

Aj
don't go yet, our friends are showing up now, look :) it's nona and Bill!

Nona   January 12th, 2009 459 GMT

Hate to see you go as I come in AJ. Hope we'll catch up soon. Good nite but feel free to stay! :)

Bill   January 12th, 2009 459 GMT

Nona -

What did they agree on?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 459 GMT

I missed it Nona, I was watching Huckabee, he had Ann Coulter on there and she has said things about him in the past, so he was confronting her. It wasn't as interesting as I thought it would be.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 459 GMT

Ovens and Nazis is a bad bad way to take the conversation, I agree.

It hurts me when Dan accuses me of being a fake Jew because I don't agree with him.

The world hurts too much

Hurt begets hurt it seems

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 501 GMT

Akiva, PLEASE don't call names
Stay away from Nazi.

People do not agree here, but let's not go there, ok?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 502 GMT

I am sorry he said that, he was the one who hurt my feelings too. But he was under such attack, I just had to move on.
I think everyone is just raw emotions and stressed, not to say that is an excuse. They should have more self control. Fighting doe not solve anything.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 503 GMT

Nona, I saw it last night!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 503 GMT

What did they say guys? I missed it

Nona   January 12th, 2009 505 GMT

Bill - Nazi has just become a word thrown out by the ignorant who can't make an intelligent and rational argument based on facts.

On DL Hughley, they were just talking about the respective cultures of their religions and some of the East-West divide in mentality. The Muslim lady was talking about how in Arab cultures there is a tribal mentality where even if you know your people are wrong, you never admit it because you risk alienating not only your family & friends but your self identity. Hughley was comparing the whole thing to growing up in a gang culture. Then the rabbi was explaining some of the realities of Hamas as opposed to the Palestinian people. It was nice to see a rational discussion.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 506 GMT

At least we are not in the M.E.

We might be killing each other...emotions are a lot more raw there!

The conversation was very good on DL

I am sure it p.o'd many Jewss and Muslims on both sides.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 506 GMT

What were your thoughts, AJ?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 507 GMT

Wow, I hate I missed it!

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 507 GMT

Bill,

While there may be in your view small numbers for Israelis. I think this is the last straw. The camel is broken and the good will of Arab western Allies in the region are under strain. They cannot surely hope to satisfy their people by ignoring the issue with Alot of the previous wars refugees. While, yes, some numbers can be absorbed, there are those with...while are moderates, l think that it is a short fuse.
It doesn't matter for the most part what concessions Israel gives the Palestinians/hamas. They, in my view made a big miss step. Knowing that as Current matters stand in US less and less people are willing to support blindly Israeli cause or ME for that matter. Most would just rather leave the whole mess to the people it belongs to, whether it's a defeatist thought or not.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 509 GMT

Linda,\
You have not necessarily missed it.

What part of country are you in?

Late showing after Larry King

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 510 GMT

DL Hughly breaks the News

It will be on at the bottom of the hour.

Brian   January 12th, 2009 511 GMT

I would like to make it easy for everyone. Imagine a person (isra..) who have entered to a house and forced its weak occupiers (pales..) off. He definitely knew that the house is not him but decided to live in that house for ever. The legitimate occupiers decided to not give up, to do their best to get their house back. Now, will this person feel SAFE and have a normal and natural life? Won't he do EVERYTHING (legitimate self defense against terror!) to keep the house. Can you imagine how aggressive would he be ?....

It's not a matter of a islamist or communist movement ..religion has nothing to do here. Israel called Arafat terrirost though he was everything except religious..hey stop Lying at us. I understand that you're doing your best to connect the Palestinian tragedy to the war against terror and I firmly believe that after Gaza carnage no one will believe you for a second!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 511 GMT

The Rabbi and Muslim that is.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 512 GMT

Linda – also some links to video of DL's show on CNN.com but I looked and this one isn't up yet.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 512 GMT

DL comes on at top of the hour.

The discussion with the 2 is half way thru show...

Linda   January 12th, 2009 513 GMT

Sarah,
I agree that a lot of people are so tired of the ME conflict, that they may want to leave it to them. Although there are arguments on both sides, I don't see the other Arab countries coming to the defense of Hamas either. I see that each country has hidden motives. Unfortunately, I think they will fight it out, and then the dust will settle. Just like so many times before. what a mess.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 514 GMT

Great, thanks guys.

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 514 GMT

DL hughly, I thought would be a good one. especially when we need it but i didn't get the hang of it. Everytime I turned it on it was making a joke out of race...not in a good way. I think there comes a point when race comentary that is supposed to make one laugh becomes degrading, for those speaking so and those it's aimed at.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 515 GMT

Nice to meet you Sarah. I think Americans increasingly understand that Hamas is basically the al-Qaeda cell whose mission is to wipe Israel off the map and will continue to support Israel. I think they'll also continue to sympathize with the Palestinian people and advocate for their own state.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 516 GMT

Nona,
Have you seen Rod since the other night? He was looking for you yesterday.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 516 GMT

I thought it was very interesting.

I have seen these 2 people before.

She is Iranian American. She has a few books out...she is quite ccontroversial. Immigrated to USA when she was a child

The Rabbi has had a show called Shalom in the Home on cable

Linda   January 12th, 2009 516 GMT

Hi Brandon,

Nona   January 12th, 2009 517 GMT

Hi Brandon!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 518 GMT

Nona,he apologized to you, didn't he?

Nona   January 12th, 2009 518 GMT

Yes I did, Linda. He pounded on me as soon as he saw me with an apology. It was very sweet and I think all of you guys know how much I appreciated that. I really really did.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 518 GMT

Yes, it will be on in 45 min. If it is the Iranian American women that I am thinking of, I think she is very intelligent and provokes a lot of thought.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 519 GMT

Hello Brandon!

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 519 GMT

yes, linda, there are so many hidden motives between the west and ME leaders that it honestly reminds me of the spy novels based on the French revolution and in old England btween kings and queens.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 519 GMT

Ooops! I meant "pounced" not "pounded"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There can be a huge difference between a "c" and a "d" I supposed! LOL!!!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 520 GMT

Good Nona,
I had a very stern word with him as soon as I saw him, and he said he was on looking for you, he knew he was wrong.
I told him that it would take a big man to do that, and I knew he could be one. I 'm glad he did. :)

Linda   January 12th, 2009 521 GMT

Great comparison, Sarah!

Nona   January 12th, 2009 521 GMT

Thank you Linda. Rod is a big man - I always thought he was and was kinda devastated when he thought I was so small minded.

Bill   January 12th, 2009 521 GMT

Sarah -

I think the Arab nations are getting fed up with an Iranian sponsored terror camps in their midst. I hear more and more encouraging news from Egypt. They are getting pretty sick of Hamas and Hizbollah. Arab support for Iranian terrorism is weakening. To save face, many Arab governments are going through the motions to condemn Israel for defending itself against the constant Islamic terrorist aggression. But most of them realize that the destruction of Hamas is in their best interests.

I don't think a lot of Americans blindly support Israel. I think a lot of Americans support Israel for logical reasons. We both value life, truth, justice, security, and peace. When attacked, we take the fight to the enemy. In times of peace, you couldn't have a better friend.

Some Americans, no doubt, want to leave the Mid-East alone to self-destruct. That is not in our interest either. The more we fight Islamic terrorism in its homeland, the less we need to have war in our homeland.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 522 GMT

Politicians are so removed–it is about money and votes for them.

I think one loses a lot of morals when they get enmeshed in politics...personal opinion.

I could not do it, I am afraid..

Brian   January 12th, 2009 524 GMT

Nona ..you really made me laugh !!

"Hamas is basically the al-Qaeda cell?!" ...what a silly joke..anyway and after all, all resistance movement are considered as al-Qaeda cells for the israeli propaganda..

AGAIN !
stop Lying at us. I understand that you’re doing your best to connect the Palestinian tragedy to the war against terror and I firmly believe that after Gaza carnage no one will believe you for a second!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 524 GMT

LOSS OS MORALS, I couldn't agree more!

Tell me, do any of you think BB will get elected in Feb.?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 526 GMT

I dont agree Bill, it is not entirely Islamic issue, it is a Zionist issue, too.

Idealogies whatever side is a very big part of it.

It is both sides....ALL sides...Arab politicians, USA politicians, a lonnnggg laundry list.

All are culpable.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 527 GMT

My resolute opinion!
:)

Nona   January 12th, 2009 527 GMT

I agree, Bill.

Politics is basically the business of back-rubbing and self-preservation. In many ways, it cripples the capacity for true leadership. When true leadership can emerge from politics, it's rare but it's like a gift from heaven. I think good leaders don't please everybody and sometimes even hurt some people, but they leave the world better than they found it. Good leaders have to make some terribly difficult decisions, and that kinda cripples incentive to be a good leader for anybody with an eye on an election.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 528 GMT

What do you mean it's a Zionist issue, AJ?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 530 GMT

I could write a book, Nona, and many have. But not tonight.

Too tired.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 532 GMT

Lets just say there are definitely 2 parallell histories of the last 60 years. BOTH sides need to be heard...

that is the very short of it

Nona   January 12th, 2009 532 GMT

Fair enough - but be prepared to see the question from me again when you're better rested, my friend!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 532 GMT

AJ
Do you feel well enough to explain to me, since you are jewish, the difference between Jewish issue and Zionist issue?
If you can't save it for tomorrow :)

Linda   January 12th, 2009 533 GMT

What about BB? Does anyone think he will get elected again?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 533 GMT

No problem, friend!

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 534 GMT

Translated Article from Arabic Newspaper today

Before over 5 years, mohammad Al Dowery- Iraq UN rep- said on the UN apologizing to his students for teaching them the international law and said , there is no international law I am sorry to my students and waved him face from the camera and cried Baghdad.

Which international law while "Ayoub" was swimming on his mother blood for four days, which international law when the Un humanitarian "RELIEF" for refugees school is hit when it's for refugees at their own land and the school is housing refugees from the 11 days massacres ,which international law when you have a corrupted police man still patrolling the world.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 537 GMT

Hmmm...good question...

Let us just say there are pro, anti, post, et zionists
And there are many many Jews with diverse–and very strong –opinions in the Jewish world.

Ive said it before:

2 jews
3 opinions
We are a very multi faceted bunch

Bill   January 12th, 2009 538 GMT

AJ -

I respect your opinion. Yes, there are extremists on both sides and no side is without blame.

But I don't think that both sides are equally to blame. In my opinion, Israel has bent over backwards trying to promote peace. It went through a painful process to remove all of its citizens from Gaza to give it to the Palestinians. What the Palestinians did to it is history.

The Palestinians seem to think it is their God given right to attack Israel and they don't understand why there are consequences for their actions. Hello? I believe that when the Palestinians stop their constant attacks, there will be no war around Israel. If they can control themselves for an extended period of time, then maybe trust can develop. Then maybe there can be peace.

Nona -

Thanks

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 540 GMT

From my POV, Zionism is what keeps Jews from talking to each other within the community!

Look Zionism up in wikipedia, a good description of all POVs, historical background, etc

Even I have trouble understanding the full dynamic, but it is at the core of our own internal war, in my opinion.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 542 GMT

I see Zionism as very problematic, but I am NOT anti Israeli people, I am anti the Zionist idealogy

Linda   January 12th, 2009 542 GMT

Thanks, AJ!
What do you think of BB? Will they elect him again?
I wish Benny was here so I could ask him. He would know the word on the street

Nona   January 12th, 2009 543 GMT

Bill, from what I've read of your posts, you and I see 100% eye to eye.

I like also how your arguments are intellectually based on fact. I don't really see you resorting to name calling and insults when I read your comments. Emotions run high on this topic, but when you have the facts, you can let them do the talking. If people refuse to listen, well, there always will be those people.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 544 GMT

AJ,
Some of my Jewish friends seem to feel the same way. I does seem very complicated, that is why it confuses me.
Thanks for your answer ;)

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 545 GMT

I res[ectfully disagree, Bill.

You have a right to your opinion,

There are two histories of a 60 year conflict, good to look at both sides, as distatsteful as it may be to you..

I have and it has been extremely painful for me as a Jew, but most necessary.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 546 GMT

I'm glad that all of us here tonight, are the people with respect for one another, and have intelligent conversations. I can learn a lot with this type of setting.

Bill   January 12th, 2009 549 GMT

Nona -

Thanks. Sometimes I have not been "gentle" in my remarks, but I try to take the example of you, Linda, Lynne, AJ, et. al., and take the high road.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 550 GMT

I have also explored the facts on both sides and all'I can say is, there are very different ideas about the 'facts'–on both sides, folks

That is why it is now a HUMAN issue affecting both sides from my perspective and there ya go...my perspetive

racasel   January 12th, 2009 550 GMT

All who believe in muslim, watch this web link video.

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak

Nona   January 12th, 2009 551 GMT

Me too, Linda!

Personally, AJ, I think the history is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Linda (I think???) was saying the other day, "Start the history with the Neanderthals," and I kind of agree. A muddled, disputed history doesn't change the facts on the ground today, and the facts on the ground today are what the foundations of peace should be built on, not whose land was whose when at whatever point in time. JMO – I am increasingly of the opinion that you can't unravel conflicting histories and find some kind of answer that yields peace as the net result.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 551 GMT

I have lost it a few times, Bill. But I try to remember that we are all human beings here. Thank you for the complement.

CAN SOMEONE ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT BiBi?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 552 GMT

Read thru tonights posts, you will get a little of my background and experience of living in Israel.

I hope itwill also help you understand ME better as a Jew, and human beibg...

Nona   January 12th, 2009 552 GMT

I hear ya, Bill. My fuse has been known to get a little short too!

Bill   January 12th, 2009 552 GMT

AJ -

Which part(s) do you disagree with? Do you think that Israel wants constant war? Do you think that Israel's response to Islamic terrorist attacks is unjustified? What do you think Israel should do when their civilian population is bombarded by thousands of rockets and mortars?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 553 GMT

Yes, it was me Nona. You said it much better :)

Linda   January 12th, 2009 556 GMT

I enjoy reading all of your posts, AJ. And I think we have a lot of insight about you, as you do about me. Although I am not Jewish, I think we see things very similar. I don't think it is a question of WHAT you are, but WHO you are.
I like each and every one of you here tonight.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 556 GMT

Linda, you were cracking me up that night!

WARRIOR!!!!!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 556 GMT

On BB, you will need to ask Dan and Beny.

South Africa did it

Ireland did it

Annd they are stiil doing it

I hope that Israel and Palestine can do it too–in my lifetime!!

Gary   January 12th, 2009 557 GMT

Did the fathr tell his screaming children’s that those horrible noises were just another rocket sent over to Israel with the hope that kills a Jew or an Israeli child for th past 8 years or more?
The truth is that your children are very used to this environment and you have raised them to believe that is ok to attack other civil populations as long as they are Jews but you forgot to tell them that you reap what you sow and you Palestinians have NOT sown peace. It is different when you are only looking with a narrow minded view isn't it. A few weeks of bombs going the other way might balance things out a bit.

Brandon   January 12th, 2009 557 GMT

POLITICS..POLITICS..POLITICIANS...

Guys, im an economist...an economic problem needs an economic solution...not a political one... any concern based in religion and its aspects must have a religious approach...for every problem there's a solution..

THE LAW OF SUPPLY AND DEMAND...

I'LL APPLY IT ON HOW I UNDERSTANDS IT...
( IN THESE ISRAEL-GAZA CONFLICT )....

THERE ARE NO WARS IF THERE ARE NO COUNTRIES THAT SUPPORT AND SUPPLY ANY ARMAMENTs IN BOTH SIDES...

HAMAS DEMANDS FOR ROCKETS AND COUNTRIES WHO SUPPORT HAMAS SUPPLY THEM WITH SUCH..

ISRAEL DEMANDS FOR MODERN WEAPONRY AND COUNTRIES WHO SUPPORT ISRAEL SUPPLY THEM WITH SUCH..

IMAGINE, IF THOSE COUNTRIES STOPS PRODUCING SUCH WEAPONS..
NO WARS...NO CONFLICTS...NO KILLINGS...

THOUGH, LETS FACE THE REALITY THAT POLITICS ARE HERE LONG BEFORE WE ARE BORN...AND POLITICS ARE HERE TO STAY...WETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT...
.....SAD BUT TRUE....

Linda   January 12th, 2009 557 GMT

Nona,
I was just in the mood!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 558 GMT

Brandon,
I'm married to an Economist. That is why I understand your way of thinking. :)

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 600 GMT

Warrior #2 signing off here.

Nona, ask me that question above next time as my neck is killing me!!

I am not ignoring you, I promise

Linda, DL is now coming on!! Check it out!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 601 GMT

Brandon,
I'm going to come to your house and steal your CAPS LOCK button! :)

Linda   January 12th, 2009 602 GMT

AJ
Yes, I have it on, good night, get some rest!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 602 GMT

Warrior #1 Salutes YOU!

Nona   January 12th, 2009 603 GMT

Will do. Feel better, AJ.

Veronica Smith   January 12th, 2009 603 GMT

Sick of so much hypocrisy, can this father tell me what kind of explanation he gave to his children when everyday rockets were fired by the Palestinians into Israel. Did he tell his screaming children that those horrible noises were just another rocket sent over to Israel with the hope that it kills a Jew or an Israeli child?
The truth is that your children are very used to this environment and you have raised them to believe that it is ok to attack civil population as long as they are Jews but you forgot to tell them that you reap what you sow and Palestinians have NOT sown peace.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 608 GMT

What's the deal with Dan? I saw the conversation in the thread but couldn't entirely follow.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 609 GMT

Brandon, Linda is the great Western Imperialist oppressor of people who write in all caps.

Just so ya know.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 611 GMT

Well, there were protest in NYC, that turned violent today. I was hoping he was one the blog, because I am afraid that he may have gone to the protest and after the day he had her earlier, I'm worried.
He was really being attacked from all sides, and some horrible things were said to him. So I hope he did NOT go to the protests. I would hate for him to have been in the middle of it.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 612 GMT

And don't forget, The WARRIOR

Nona   January 12th, 2009 618 GMT

I thought the Palestinians at the rally in NY were attacking each other. I didn't think it was a clash between pro-Hamas and pro-Israeli protesters.

dominique   January 12th, 2009 618 GMT

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589

Best historical explanation I found for this conflict....
Was surprised of how little I knew...
Little long but completely worth it...

Bill   January 12th, 2009 618 GMT

Press report from the violence in NY today:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479189,00.html

It seems the pro-Palestinian protestors were vastly outnumbered by the Israeli supporters. I think this is a good sign.

Damien Blackley   January 12th, 2009 620 GMT

When Israel calls a halt and withdraws from the Gaza, who will be the winner?

Israel will claim victory if no rockets are fired.

Hamas will claim victory if can fire just one rocket.

Neither. Without a peace accord the only winner is the status quo.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 620 GMT

thanks Bill!, for the link!

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 620 GMT

In response to Video by racasel,

This is Islam debate

Nona   January 12th, 2009 621 GMT

Dominique, I've watched part of it. Meh.

Are you getting royalties on that video?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 623 GMT

I'm not sure there is going to be a WINNER here. How will they measure winning? I'm sure they will both claim victory, but what will that really mean?

Bill   January 12th, 2009 623 GMT

This report says the violence was at the pro-Palestinian protest:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/01/11/gaza.rally.new.york/

It seems that the protests that turn violent across the world tend to be the pro-Palestinian ones.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 623 GMT

Bill, I was in Atlanta today and went to the rally in front of the CNN headquarters. Pro-Hamas were on one side of the street, pro-Israel was on the other.

The Pro-Israel outnumbered pro-Hamas by I bet at least 4-1.

Will be interesting to see if CNN noticed.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 624 GMT

Nona,
I agree, that has been posted here, 3 million times. Whew

Linda   January 12th, 2009 625 GMT

Bye Brandon,
Remember, CAPS LOCK OFF :)
Sweet Dreams!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 626 GMT

Nona,
That is so interesting, what happened? I have not seen anything about a rally in Atlanta

Linda   January 12th, 2009 627 GMT

Clayton,
Do you think using that type of language or having your caps lock on will make your point valid?

racasel   January 12th, 2009 628 GMT

that video was done by your fellow middle easter lady who is well educated. I don't know what language she speaks but it must be something muslims or arabs understand. that is probably the difference between hamas or hesbollah and the rest of the world and is the root of the problem, one is "educated" and they are not.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 629 GMT

Well Clayton,
I'm neither Israeli, nor Jewish, nor a pig. So what does that say about you?

Nona   January 12th, 2009 630 GMT

Goodnight, Brandon!

Please don't leave the keys to the asylum with the lunatics!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 631 GMT

Well, Nona
Looks like the crazies are coming out

clayton   January 12th, 2009 631 GMT

Linda,LIER YOU ARE PIG LIKE BRANDON

Linda   January 12th, 2009 632 GMT

Oink, Oink

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 632 GMT

Jew Versus Non-Jew in New York Finance

The Jewish problem in the United States is essentially a city problem. It is characteristic of the Jew to gather in numbers, not where land is open nor where raw materials are found, but where the greatest number of people abide. This is a noteworthy fact when considered alongside the Jews’ claim that the Gentiles have ostracized them; the Jews congregate in their greatest numbers in those places and among those people where they complain they are least wanted. The explanation most frequently given is this; the genius of the Jew is to live off people; not off land, nor off the production of commodities from raw material, but off people. Let other people till the soil; the Jew, if he can, will live off the tiller. Let other people toil at trades and manufacture; the Jew will exploit the fruits of their work. That is his peculiar genius. If this genius be described as parasitic, the term would seem to be justified by a certain fitness.

In no other city of the United States can the Jewish Problem be studied with greater profit than in the city of New York. There are more Jews in New York than in all Palestine. The communal register of the Jewish Kehillah (or Kahal) of New York sets the population at about 1,527,778. “The next largest Jewish community in the world, that of the city of Warsaw, is estimated to have been between 300,000 and 330,000 Jews, about one-fifth as many as we estimate for New York.” (Communal Register, 1917-1918.) “If we accept the estimate of the number of Jews in the world as about 14,000,000, one Jew out of every ten resides in New York.”

As a population, the Jews exert more power in New York than they have ever exerted during the Christian Era in any place, with the exception of the present Russia. The Jewish Revolution in Russia was manned from New York. The present government of Russia was transported almost as a unit from the lower East Side of New York. The New York Ghetto has long since overflowed the lower East Side. Brownsville, Brooklyn, is a Jewish town, with its own language, theaters and press. The upper East Side of New York is practically in large sections a Jewish Ghetto. The prosperous West Side and the middle class section of the city north of Central Park are practically Jewish.

With the exception of one great department store and a few lesser ones, all the large department stores in New York are Jewish. Men and women’s ready-to-wear apparel, laundries, furriers, the general run of shopkeeping is practically monopolized by Jews. The legal profession is predominantly Jewish. It is estimated that of the 27,000 news stands that control the distribution of New York’s reading matter, 25,000 are in the hands of Jews. There are 360 synagogues on the East Side of New York alone.

The New York Kehillah is a very powerful organization, whose membership strength is not accurately known. It may be described as the Jewish government of that city. It was organized in 1908 as the result of a statement by General Bingham, then police commissioner of New York, that the Jewish population, which then amounted to 600,000, contributed 50 per cent of the criminals of the city. The Kehillah is the bar before which the authorities must answer for statements or acts touching the Jewish community. Its power is very great and its methods far reaching.

Politically, while the rest of the country is entertained with the fiction that Tammany Hall rules the politics of New York, the fact is rarely published that the Jews rule Tammany.

But it is not the possession of power that constitutes an indictment of any people, it is their use or misuse of it. And if the fact of power is established, no misuse of it being found, the fact has a commendatory side. If the Jews who flock to New York become American, and if they do not work ceaselessly to twist Americanism into something else; if they strengthen the principles and traditions of America, and do not cease to vitiate the one and abolish the other, the judgement upon them must be one of friendship.

However, to establish the fact of Jewish power, one need not remain in the ghetto, nor in the mercantile districts. There are higher fields awaiting survey.

In Wall Street, the Jewish element is both numerous and powerful, as might be expected of a race which from early days has played an important part in the financial operations of the world.

This is not to say, however, that Jewish influence in American financial affairs is paramount. At one time it threatened to be, but American financiers have always been silently aware of the International Jewish Financier, and have endeavored quietly to block his game. Time and again the contest seemed to turn in favor of the Jew, but when the widespread secret wrestlings of the two powers have been suspended for a moment, it has been found that American finance has maintained its superiority, if only in a slight degree. The Rothschilds were the first to be beaten on American soil; the story of their hidden hand in American finance, politics and diplomacy is a voluminous one; but even their finesse did not avail against the sterling worth of American Business—not “American business” as it has come to be known, now that thousands of Jews are scattered about the world, representing themselves to be “American business men” although they can scarcely speak English!—but American Business as represented by the combination of American ability and American conscience. If the reputation of American business has suffered, it is because something other than American methods have been used under the American name.

In the New York financial district, Jewish finance makes itself felt through its private banking institutions. As distinct from the great trust companies and banks of deposit, the private banker utilizes his own capital and that of his partners and associates.

Jewish finance differs radically from non-Jewish finance in the fact that Jewish bankers are essentially money-lenders. They may underwrite great flotations of bond and stock issues for railroad and industrial companies, governments and municipalities, but these securities are immediately sold to the public. There is a quick money turnover. The public carries the bonds; the Jewish financier gets his money. The Jewish banker himself rarely has a permanent interest in the corporations he finances. Non-Jewish bankers usually feel obligated to retain a connection with the enterprises they have financed, in order to assure the investors a proper administration of funds; they feel obligated to contribute to the success of the investments which they handle for other people.

The Jewish banker keeps his capital liquid. The cash is always in his coffers. This is essential to his position as one who deals in money. And when the inevitable day of financial stress arrives, he profits greatly by the higher value then placed on liquid capital.

Far and away the leading Jewish banking house in Wall Street is that of Kuhn, Loeb & Company. The head of this great firm was the late Jacob Schiff, whose associates were his son Mortimer, Otto H. Kahn, Paul M. Warburg, and others, who have taken prominent parts both in public life and giant financial operations. Other private Jewish banking houses may be named as follows: Speyer & Company; J. and W. Seligman & Company; Lazard Freres; Ladenburg, Thalmann & Company; Hallgarten & Company; Knauth, Nachod & Kuhne; Goldman, Sachs & Company, as well as others of relatively less prominence. These firms enjoy a high reputation for financial integrity. They are cautious bankers, skillful in their operations, and sometimes brilliant in their financial strategy.

There is much control of industry, from the financial side, represented by Jewish power in Wall Street, and they have gained a monopoly of many metal markets. Large, prosperous Jewish brokerage houses are on every hand. The further one goes down the line of speculative operations, the more of the Jewish race one finds to be active in the work of company promotions and the marketing of oil and mining stocks.

Yet one amazing fact stands out from the mass: there is not, at this writing, a Jewish bank president on Wall Street; that is, a president of a bank of public deposit. Of all the great banks of public deposit and corporation finance, the enormous trust companies whose individual resources often run up to $400,000,000 and whose combined resources approximate many billions, not one of them has Jewish management or Jewish officers.

Why is this so? Why have the powerful banking families of Wall Street surrounded themselves so carefully with non-Jewish associates? Why has this great dividing line been drawn between members of the Jewish and non-Jewish races in the financial district that manages the financial resources of the nation?

Why? The answer to the question is in the custody of the stronger and sounder financial heads of Wall Street.

Only here and there will one discover a Jewish director in the boards of some of the lesser banking institutions.

The situation may be due merely to a shrewd analysis of the public mind. Rightly or wrongly the public prefers not to confide its money to an institution under Jewish control. It is true that in certain uptown sections of New York there are a few banks of a local character which are completely under Jewish management. But even the Jews prefer to deposit their money in banks which are free of Jewish control.

The situation may also be the effect of the unfortunate experience which the public has had with Jewish management of banks in the past. Several large failures have served to impress upon the public mind a certain peculiarity which attached to the Jewish element in those failures. The public has not forgotten, among others, the failure of Joseph G. Robin, whose real name was Robonovitch. He was an Odessa Jew. In an incredibly short space of time he built up four large banking institutions in which public money was deposited. He wrecked them all. His failure was most sensational and caused untold suffering. Robonovitch’s career illustrated very vividly the extent of the gifts and energies of the Jew from Russia, his wonderful faculty for building up large concerns through chicanery, and his cowardice and duplicity in the hour of defeat. This banking career ended in a felon’s cell.

However, one fact of importance, a fact that should be reassuring to the general public, is that the men to whom is entrusted the crucial task of putting to work and keeping at work the financial resources of the United States have hedged themselves about with a non-Jewish wall of great and long standing.

The effort of Jewish interests to gain control of the Stock Exchange is also an interesting story, and although the record shows a steady Jewish gain toward the end they desire, it is slow; but there are indications that the relentless persistence for which the Jew is noted, will prevail in the end—that is, if stock gambling continues to prove an alluring source of wealth.

When the Jews gain control of the Stock Exchange they will, for the first time, possess the power to wrest public banking control from the non-Jewish group.

There is a silent resistance to Jews on the Stock Exchange also, in virtue of an unwritten law, just as there is in the banking world of Wall Street, and the story of the counter-resistance calls for an historian.

It is related by Sereno S. Pratt that in 1792 there was a little office at No. 22 Wall Street for the public sale of stocks. A number of men, engaged in the business of buying and selling, were accustomed to meet near a large buttonwood tree which stood near 68 Wall Street. In 1817, the New York Stock Exchange, about as present constituted, was organized.

The Stock Exchange is private institution. It is practically a commission club in private hands. It is not incorporated.

Its membership is strictly limited to 1,100 men.

There are only two ways by which an outsider can become owner of seat on the Exchange—by obtaining it from the executor of a deceased member, or by purchasing from a retiring or bankrupt member.

These memberships or seats cost at present more than $100,000. About ten years ago a seat could be bought for $77,000.

The Stock Exchange is ruled by a Governing Committee of 40 members. For many years no Jew was elected to this Committee. Of recent years, an occasional Jewish broker has succeeded in being admitted to this upper group, but not often. This position, however, has not been the main objective of Jewish traders. When they secure a sufficient number of seats on the Exchange, they will take care of the matter of control in their own well-known way.

The two barriers which at present operate to prevent a large inroad of Jews are these: first, a silent resistance on the part of the other members against the admission of Jews, a resistance which is said to date from the earliest formation of this famous trading institution. And, second, the restrictions which are placed by the constitution of the Stock Exchange itself on all applications for membership.

The Governing Committee of 40 has a Committee on Admissions which comprises 15 members and which considers all applications for membership. As the membership is fixed at 1,100 and as no new seats are ever sold, a new member can gain entrance only through the transfer of an existing seat. But even such a transfer is under the strict control of the Committee of Admissions, to whose scrutiny the name of the applicant must be submitted, and whose two-thirds approval is necessary to his being seated.

But one outstanding characteristic of the Jewish race is its persistence. What it cannot attain this generation, it will attain next. Defeat it today, it does not remain defeated; its conquerors die, but Jewry goes on, never forgiving, never forgetting, never deviating from its ancient aim of world control in one form or another. So, though it would seem impossible that Jewish membership in the Stock Exchange could increase under these conditions, the plain fact is that it has increased. Slowly but surely the Jews are gaining numerical power on the floor of the Exchange. And they are doing it with a subtlety that is amazing.

How do they do it? In the first place, no Jewish member ever transfers his seat to a non-Jew. In times of market dullness, when the prices of seats drop and the demand is not so keen as usual, Jewish bidders offer, invariably, the highest sums to the seller. Then, in the case of the bankruptcy of a non-Jewish member, the receiver is almost compelled by the demand of creditors to accept the highest bid for the transfer of his membership; and, of course, a Jew is always at hand to make the bid as high as necessary. These are the two principal methods by which Jewish membership in the Exchange is being increased.

Another method, however, is more insidious than all the others combined. It is based on the rather common practice of adopting non-Jewish names or professing some phase of the Christian faith. The “changed name,” or, as Jews know it, “the cover name,” is a very potent part of the policy of concealment. In an advertisement, on business stationery, at the head of a magazine or newspaper article, such names as Smith, Adams, Robin, serve as a “blind.” The stage is flooded with Jewish actors and actresses, but their names are very distinguished Anglo-Saxon. Jewish papers often print jokes based on this habit of changing names. For long-distance dealing, or any business that is carried on “unsight and unseen,” the name-veil is very useful. On this account, many Gentiles would be surprised to learn the extent to which they are involved with Jews, whose names give no indication of Jewishness. And this very system, an old American name, coupled with membership in some Christian sect (preferably one of the newer sects), has accounted for some memberships in the Stock Exchange which probably would not otherwise exist.

It is interesting to tabulate the growth of Jewish membership as shown by the old directories of the Exchange.

In the year 1872, with a total of 1,009 members there were 60 Jews.

In 1873, with a total of 1,006 members, the Jewish membership decreased to 49.

In 1890, with membership limited to 1,100 there were 87 Jews.

In 1893, with the same limit of membership, there were 106 Jews.

At the present time, still with the same rigid limitation of membership, there are 276 Jewish members.

It is said that the Jewish membership is really somewhat larger than the last figures indicate, owing to the fact that some of the Jewish members bear non-Jewish names and have adopted some phase of the Christian faith and have cut themselves off, outwardly at least, from the Jewish community.

The figures show, therefore, that Jewish membership increased from 5 7/8 per cent of the total in 1872 to 25 per cent in 1919.

In its reference to the Stock Exchange under the head of “Finance,” the Jewish Encyclopedia states that Jewish membership is “only 128,” “a little more than 10 per cent.” The date of these Jewish statistics is not given. The article quoted has, however, an argumentative as well as informative purpose. The statement concerning the 10 per cent membership on the Exchange is made to call attention to the fact that “Jews form at least 20 per cent of the whole population of New York, and much more than that percentage of the business section.” The Jewish population of New York City has since increased to 25 per cent of the whole, and the membership on the Stock Exchange has increased to the same point.

But it has taken 47 years for the Jews to gain that 25 per cent membership. Their control of the Exchange, at the given rate of progress, is only a question of time.

In spite of these details, it is probably a fact that the Jewish speculators in the New York financial district greatly outnumber the non-Jewish speculators. Speculation and gambling are known historically as special propensities of the Jewish race. While many Jews patronize non-Jewish firms, the great mass of them follow in the speculative path of the leaders of their race. In Europe, where their financial control is more firmly fixed and of longer standing than here, it is rarely that the Jews are caught in speculative failure. They are sometimes found in speculative scandals, but seldom in any scandal involving losses to themselves. As a rule they dabble in “Jewish” securities, and in Wall Street one hears many stories concerning the victories or defeats of “the Jewish following.”

Some of the biggest Jewish sensations which ever occurred in the United States, sensations which disclosed by their lurid light the interlocking of Jewish finance, politics and racial objectives, have been brought to light by occurrences in Wall Street. It is probably the nature of these disclosures which accounts for the strong and silent anti-Jewish resistance which characterizes straight American finance.

Meanwhile, to leave the exalted sphere of Wall Street, banking and brokerage activities, let us descend to the street level of the Curb Market in Broad Street. Here the Jewish brokers flourish in their oil, mining and stock promotion offices. They are so numerous as to give a Semitic cast to the vicinity, as if it were a quarter in a foreign city. It is true that these concerns are frequently operated under non-Jewish names, but that is merely part of the Jew’s consciousness that, in financial matters, whether rightly or wrongly, he is under suspicion. Gentile names carry with them no such handicap.

Going still further down the line, in shadier lanes, in semi-hidden offices, may be seen numerous members of the Jewish race who are identified with no established market which deals with securities. These are the true parasites of the Wall Street environment, they are the camp followers without status. Their work is that of fraudulent stock promotion, and they enter upon it with a zeal and an energy which nothing can dismay. Their purpose is to make money without labor, to get money without giving value, and in this they are immensely successful. It is amazing the number of these men who make immense fortunes; it is equally amazing the continuous crop of unwary, poorly informed, and unsuspecting Gentiles who send their money from all parts of the United States for the worthless bits of paper in which these Jewish parasites deal. It is a most heartless business; it has not even brilliance in its deviltry. It is the old-time shell game in other terms. The operations of these men are mostly conducted by mail or telephone. They deal in “sucker lists,” and they circulate “market letters” by which, under the pretense of giving disinterested advice to investors, they seek to boom their own shady game. These “market letters” are, of course, innocuous to those who are informed and who can read their fraudulent import between the lines, but they are dangerous to the honest but uninformed minds of tens of thousands of thrifty people.

Pursued by detective agencies, watched constantly by the government secret service, exposed by the newspapers, placed on trial in the courts, convicted and sentenced to terms in prison, this type of Jewish swindler is undeterred. Where other men would regard exposure as a lifelong shame, this type regards it simply as a trifling interruption, as a sailor would regard an accidental tumble overboard.

There are lower depths still, where bald theft and violence prevail. The persons most found there are the henchmen of the lower type of speculators. The stories of criminality in Wall Street, a numerous and startling list, involving sometimes the high, but mostly the low, and all marked with a peculiar racial and groupal cast, have at times challenged the attention of the whole world, but as is usually the case with the general publication of such stories, the fundamental explanatory facts are omitted.

But it will be seen, as the story of actual conditions in Wall Street and its financial environs is unrolled, that there are always the two elements—Jewish and non-Jewish. It is perhaps the only non-Jewish coalition in America, this silent resistance which American finance is making to Semitic control. It is, in a sense, unnatural to the American mind, but has been forced as a defensive against the strong offensive operations of the Semitic coalition. If there is ever in the United States a strong non-Jewish combination, it will be the direct result of the ancient Jewish coalition against non-Jews. The condition in the United States at this moment, with regard to the financial question, is this: The Jewish coalition goes lower, but it does not yet go higher than non-Jewish control. It is struggling to go higher, but has thus far been estopped. It is believed that when the people are made aware of what is transpiring, it will be forever estopped.

Why Jews are in New York

The International Jew
— The World’s Foremost Problem

As readers of former articles will remember, the attack upon Capital represented by the disorderly forces who operate under the forged banner of “Progress,” is an attack against Gentile capital only. The only financial managers attacked in the United States are Gentile managers. In England also, the same attack is made. Readers of the newspapers know what strenuous efforts are being made in that country to wreck railroad and coal mine administration by a constant series of strikes. But what readers of newspapers are not told is that the railroad and coal mines are still in Gentile hands, and that the Bolshevist-led strike is a Jewish financial weapon to wreck these forms of Gentile business, that they may easily fall into Jewish hands.

dominique   January 12th, 2009 634 GMT

Nona,
No royalties, just surprised that there has been less than 500 people who watched it...
If you have another one, would love to see it...

Bill   January 12th, 2009 635 GMT

Nona -

It's good to hear that the pro-Israeli protests are getting so large.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 639 GMT

It was interesting, Linda. Very peaceful. An absolute mob scene on the pro-Israel side. We were trying to work our way from one end of the crowd to the other, but couldn't. It was just a sea of people. But it was very peaceful. Pro-Hamas shouting their slogans and raising their signs on their side of the street; Pro-Israel doing the same thing on theirs. Lots of Israelis telling their personal stories of terror attacks and rockets on their homes and cities and the people they've lost, the injuries they've endured.

Atlanta police all over the place and really great, smiling at the demonstrators and being as supportive as they could be while remaining professional. At least they were to the pro-Israel demonstrators, I assume they treated pro-Hamas as kindly. At one point my friend and I climbed on a wall to see how far the crowd went and they politely asked us to get off the wall! We did, and that was the end of it, but they could have been real jerks at us for being on the wall if they wanted to be.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 640 GMT

Dominique,
I am also surprised to hear that less than 500 people have watched it.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 641 GMT

CNN blogs need an ignore button so you can skip the posts of habitual dumb asses. I've turned my imaginary one on.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 642 GMT

Nona,
Is is nice to know that it was a peaceful protest. That gives me hope!

Bill   January 12th, 2009 643 GMT

Nona, Linda -

It looks like the gene pool could use some chlorine. It seems like someone with a couple of extra chomosomes has invaded this space...

Well, gotta work in the moning.

It's been a pleasure. Goodnight!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 643 GMT

Nona
:)
Note to self: It is illegal to stab someone for being stupid!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 644 GMT

Night Bill,
I'll work on some Gene Therapy!

Nona   January 12th, 2009 646 GMT

I like this one, Dominique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0NSRCGnhQI

I think it's very important that Palestinians are treated fairly and with respect and dignity. They deserve that, no question about it. But supporting Hamas is the same thing as supporting al-Qaeda or the Taliban, and if those groups are (heaven forbid) ever in charge of Canada or Mexico, I hope the USA is just as diligent about taking them out as Israel is being with Hamas.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 647 GMT

Night, Bill! Hope to see you soon!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 649 GMT

Have either of you seen the 15 seconds one? If you haven't, I highly recommend it.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 652 GMT

Yes, I have seen that one, Linda. It is excellent!

Nona   January 12th, 2009 653 GMT

Dominique - I was just re-reading the thread and I hope you do not think my habitual dumb ass comment was directed at you. I assure you: IT WAS NOT!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 653 GMT

I think it says a lot. I cried the first 3 times I watched it.

dominique   January 12th, 2009 656 GMT

it s a good one nona,but starts "in the middle of the movie'

Was hoping for a more historical one that gives reasons or tries to find explanations... Not just those guys are bad, look what they did , what they said....

If you find another one looking for answers and trying to understand either side instead of just blaming let me know...

This one somehow provided an extra piece of the puzzle that I did not know about...

Think you cannot find a solution when your starting point is that the others are bad (they do bad things, but might be reasons, explanations – again not that it justifies anything...,,,, whatever side you stand on

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 657 GMT

Speaking of America, i found this Video very interesting

If Americans Knew What Israel Is Doing! VIDEO WAS CENSORED!

Nona   January 12th, 2009 659 GMT

Have you read "From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters, Dominique? I highly recommend it.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 700 GMT

Hunk,
Thanks for the video, you know I always like to see both sides of all of this.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 701 GMT

I have not read it Nona. I will have to get it.

dominique   January 12th, 2009 703 GMT

Nona,
No I have not read it..... Is it a book, or an article?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 705 GMT

Nona, Just ordered it from amazon :)

Nona   January 12th, 2009 706 GMT

It's excellent, Linda. What I like about it is that it's written by a really credible journalist with no real agenda and has impeccable documentation and sourcing. She pretty much unravels the UN paper trail, documents all the way back before the Balfour Agreement, etc. It's just a good historical documentation and the conclusions they led her to.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 706 GMT

It's a book, Dominique. It's smaller than it looks - it's thick but a lot of it is appendices and bibliography.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 707 GMT

It looks very interesting. Thanks for the info. I can't wait to get it and read it.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 710 GMT

Well,
I must get off of here! Big day tomorrow, but I will try to return if I am feeling up to it.
All of you have a great night and sleep well! :)

Nona   January 12th, 2009 710 GMT

Let me know what you think if you read it, guys. I think I'm gonna hit the sack too. I'm exhausted.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 712 GMT

Great to see you again, Nona. I'll catch up with you later.
Night ALL!

Marlon T. Lacsamana   January 12th, 2009 712 GMT

Gaza and Palestine are conquered land, and conquered lands produces heroes and martyrs.

cubfan   January 12th, 2009 717 GMT

I bring great news from the front in Gaza! The New York Times is reporting Hamas is losing its will to fight and the resistance is deteriorating quickly. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/12/world/middleeast/12mideast.html?_r=1&ref=world
Israel was right all along to pursue a crushing defeat of Hamas and embarrassing the cowardly Hamas leadership hiding like rats in Damascus.
It is great to see Hamas was all talk and the fighters want to live and not die like fools on the battlefield. This war and defeat of Hamas in Gaza is the beginning of a new future for the people of Israel and all of the Palestinians who are choosing life over martyrdom. Hamas and the Influence Iran held over the Palestinian people is finished, peace and prosperity will soon reign for all the people of the Middle East.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 742 GMT

I never met a single Israeli either face by face or through the Cyberspace who consider himself a Mideastern, as if his Israel is on other planet and not part of the middle-east .... its really funny and hilarious and sometime quite very stupid.

Ashley   January 12th, 2009 747 GMT

There is this google video which help you understand this conflict a little better called "Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land". Please watch this and pass it on to those who you think are also misinformed.

THIS INDEPENDENT VIEDO HAS OPENED MY EYES about this conflict. I AM FEELING VERY BETRAYED. WE DESERVE TO KNOW THE WHOLE TRUTH !!!

Ashley   January 12th, 2009 749 GMT

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565

HERE IS THE LINK.

cubfan   January 12th, 2009 831 GMT

Hunk you are a Moron

Bill   January 12th, 2009 838 GMT

i couldn't sleep. I was reading and came across this link. It's a video about Hamas from an Arab's prespective. It really sums up what Hamas is to the Palestinian people.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 846 GMT

'Stray mortar' hit UN Gaza school

Israeli defence officials are now saying one of the deadliest recent incidents in Gaza, when a UN school was bombed, was caused by a stray mortar.

The attack killed about 40 Palestinian civilians sheltering at the Fakhura school in Jabaliya on Tuesday.

Initially, Israeli officials accused Hamas of firing from the school and using civilians as "human shields".

Read the full story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7823204.stm

Abba   January 12th, 2009 848 GMT

Ashley – I just looked at that video and it is propaganda at it's best.
I live here and it has taken different scenes out of context ... like that buldozer scene in the beginning is actually a settlement being torn down, I remember it when it happened.

Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer in Peace and a two state solution, but with a partner who wants the same.

I have been living in Israel for 10 years and this is what I have come to:

1. Yes the treatment of the Palestinians (jordanians really ,but thats whole other story) has been historically horrifying. This was mainly until Oslo for no reason. After Oslo, when the Israeli's started to strive for real peace, factions within the Palestinian people simpley could not accept changing from what they have come due to the oppression they saw over previous years.

Leaders who are persistent in extreme violence and terror to acheive their goals, all of Israel, are what is causing the continued hardships.

I can't tell you how many times the check points have gone down, easing movement, and money has been sent, just to see it answered with a bus bombing or shooting attacks. Unforturnately, the fact remains; There are palestinians that just want to live in peace in their own land that are paying the price for the extremists that won't put aside the armed resistance.

I could go on and on, but this is enough for now.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 849 GMT

cubfan,

The link from BBC shows how is a Moron.

Check it out .

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 855 GMT

The slogan for Hamas is "God is it's target, the prophet is it's model, the Qu'ran it's constitution: Jihad is it's path and death for the sake of God is the loftiest of it's wishes". Hamas states that its objective is to support the oppressed and wronged and "to bring about justice, and defeat injustice, in word and deed". Hamas believes that "the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (trust) consecrated for future Muslim generations untill Judgement Day", and as such , the land cannot be negotiated away by any political leader. Hamas' Covenent states that "so called peaceful solutions and International confrences" are "in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistence Movement", stating "there is no solution for the Palestinian question exept through Jihad".

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 855 GMT

it is a shame of "civilized"(!) world to allow such massacre..

What pity is that US and Israel is seeding endless hatred and violence which will last for generations... how pity for the people of the area..

Brian   January 12th, 2009 856 GMT

Contrary to common perception, Jewish anti-Zionism is not restricted exclusively to the well know Jewish anti-Zionist movements such as Satmar and Neturei Karta.

There are in fact many Jewish movements, groups and organizations whose ideology regarding Zionism and the so-called "State of Israel" is that of the unadulterated Torah position that any form of Zionism is heresy and that the existence of the so-called "State of Israel" is illegitimate.

No one has had to create any antagonism between our Torah and Zionism because such antagonism exists by virtue of the essence of Judaism itself, which can never tolerate the heresy of Zionism.

Zionism is wrong from the Torah viewpoint, not because many of its adherents are lax in practice or even anti-religious, but because its fundamental principle conflicts with the Torah.

Unfortunately, due to many undesirable factors, the view of Torah-true Jewry has been concealed from the general public...

ben   January 12th, 2009 858 GMT

Hunk:

They don't belong to the middle-east, because they actually are not middle-easterns, they are europeans, africans, asians and i dont know where they have been wondering. But the main thing to them is that they are the chosen people or race just like the aryans, full of hate, racism, cruelty, lies, every thing bad in all aspects of humanity.

They cannot argue and they cannot answer without a lie. see about the fakhura school story.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 900 GMT

Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada, the United States, the European Union, Japan and Israel. Hamas is banned in Jordon. Austrailia and the United Kingdom list only the military wing a terrorist organization. The United States and the European Union both implemented restrictive measures against Hamas on an International level.

shairoz   January 12th, 2009 901 GMT

Palestinians were in Palestine since 700 A.D. A group of dispersed Jews comes and decides to kick everybody out – although, people were coexisting peacefully before – and reenact their Nazi Holocaust experiences....only it was for a righteous cause .....now for the last 60 years, the indigenous people and their descendants keep fighting back for their rights, and American and Israeli policy makers condone genocide & ethnic cleansing.....something evil about this. Truth hurts doesn't it when it doesn't agree with our egos.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/ref-nakba.html

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 904 GMT

Ben,

They filled the whole blog with that carp, this will bring them to haag that's why they covering it with other lies and more bullshit.

We want to see that justice is served

ben   January 12th, 2009 911 GMT

yes nick, any objections? and thats all muslims stand and not slogan. even if abbas reaches any agreement after aver 30 years of negotiations it will be only periodically, until we get more powerful and we will resume our stand.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 915 GMT

Ben
So what your saying is you support this kind of talk (Hamas) or am I mistaken?

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 916 GMT

I stand against Hamas

ben   January 12th, 2009 923 GMT

Nick:
I thought some bloggers here suggested you remove Canada from your name because you don't represent the country.

Dont forget also PLO was a terrosist organisation and listed by the above mentioned countries and more, but when they accepted negotiations their leader Yaser Arafat was given a noble prize.

So my friend don't believe what the western states double standards and interpretation or definition of any given word.

Hoping you do the homework yourself of finding the truth.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 935 GMT

Have any one ever heard of any one blaming the Satan for all the bad things happening around him .... we will blame only incidents , a car crash, luck.

The Satan here is Israel that is brining the whole world to a one sided story, we should curse the devil and the Satan which form Israel, a whole school with its refugees in the land of refugees made for refugees bombed by three shells and the fire was not from within the school, in the coming days you will all know that there were no firing from any where.... don't be surprised its something the Satan cant mastermind that , only Israel the master of all evil.

ben   January 12th, 2009 940 GMT

Nick:
I am pro Hamas

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 944 GMT

For those who seem amnesiac about history and some clear facts :

From religion point of view, Islam has never been a real enemy to Christianity and Jewish until Napoleon Boneparte' s Egyptian attack. Until that time, Islam thought that these religions were the very same massage of the very same God, and respected as such.

There are plenty of references in Kur'an to the sons of Israel and son of Mary ( Jesus ) as messengers of the very same religion. Muslim people treated Christians and Jews with some respect that these were the people of the "message". The word "infidel" was not for those Christians and Jews since they were also the followers of the same message. Infidel is for those who do not believe.

The word Jihad referenced in Kur'an is the act of spreading the "message" to those who had no knowledge of God ( this action expels Christianity and Jewish by definition since they were also the followers of the message on a different way).

From Islam point of view, the conflicts between islamic powers and christian powers were based on the land not belief. On the contrary, Christian crusades ( also Jihad ) were against the believers of Islam from very beginning.

Until 16th century, Christian communities were not supposed to be powerful enough to be an enemy ( was a mistake by Islamic powers of that time ). Christians were expanding their science, military technology, wealth and land. The race was already lost by Muslims. But it was to late.

During 16th century, the attack of Egypt from Napoleon has unlighted the Islamic powers that the christian powers in Europe became too powerful and aggressive to cope with.. It was time to descend..a very late realization of a thousand year hate..

Conflict of a thousand year..which does not suit 21st century..

we understand today that the "crusades" are still ongoing..

ben   January 12th, 2009 953 GMT

Hunk:

The satan goes to school in Israel

miriam   January 12th, 2009 956 GMT

Hunk,

the IDF denies that explanation. Just because the bbc may be gullible and only interested in believing what terrorists have to say (freedom of expression etc) it doesn't mean that what they report is true.

The 'neutral' aid organizations are not neutral. UNRWA is run mostly by Palestinian locals, from all factions, including Hamas.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1001 GMT

miriam,

Its not rumors its the BBC, the same channel that brought to the world the lthe concentration camp in former Yugoslavia which shocked the world.

In the beginning the defeated IDF said they are at the roof top of the school and now you accept that was a big lie and say its was from outside the compound , tomorrow there will be no firing taking place at all.

Will you take the word of a criminal , even cough red handed they will deny all charges, are you insane, the UN spokesperson denied any firing from the school and was made a lair by the IDF and up to now and tomorrow they will keep denying …. this will bring them to the international criminal court for crime against humanity , its a very serious charge, guess who is going to press charge the UN itself.

Tomorrow is never late

ben   January 12th, 2009 1009 GMT

Hunk ,

Miriam is just a sample of those who lie and belives their lie, she is the satan kids teacher in our occupied land

miriam   January 12th, 2009 1009 GMT

Hunk,

I replied to you on the previous blog.

The IDF has said that it is investigating and knows that soldiers were responding to Hamas fire.It is still investigating and does not reveal its findings until the report is complete.

Anything you have heard to the contrary is false.

The UNRWA spokesman relies on his information from his employees on the ground, which includes Hamas members.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1018 GMT

happy dreams Miriam, sleep well...

miriam   January 12th, 2009 1023 GMT

At least happy dreams mean a clear conscience!

ben   January 12th, 2009 1024 GMT

The occuping force said a lot before admiting that it was an error that they hit the school by mistake, now miriam says we still investigate and don't you people believe what we have seen, heard because its false,
so i suggest we appoint miriam to go there and tell us what happened actually because unrwa is run by hamas members.

does this zionist have a limit to their pathetic lies? i wonder???

William   January 12th, 2009 1024 GMT

Maybe this war will teach Hamas to quit sending rockets into Israel.

For all the talk of Israels response, everyone has to remember that Hamas has been asking for it.

When the idiots stop their agression towards Israel, Im sure Israel would happily stop retaliating.

William   January 12th, 2009 1027 GMT

Also – anyone who refers to Israel as "the occupation" needs to get over it. They are a member of the UN for crying out loud. Israel is a county, just as valid as any other, with every right to respond to attack.

miriam   January 12th, 2009 1029 GMT

The IDF has not admitted anything other than that it was responding to Hamas fire originating from somewhere in the vicinity of the school. Full-stop. Period.

It is still investigating.

Anything else is not true.

ben   January 12th, 2009 1029 GMT

conscience LOL do you people have that, or another lie

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1032 GMT

mariam,

You are so bathetic liar and its really astonishing that you call yourself a Mariam, you good to be on AliBaba story hidden on the olive jars among the 40 thieves.

miriam   January 12th, 2009 1034 GMT

Plenty. That's why we look after each other.And others.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1034 GMT

oh yes.. clear conscience of wishful thinking...

At least we do not and will NEVER sleep for the sake of innocent children being blown by Evil' s hi-tech weapons arsenal..

We will always keep our mind and eyes open on the guilds of war criminals..

We will always be after them..to bring them to Justice..

They will never feel safe nor will have happy dreams..

War criminals and baby killers do not deserve resting in peace either..

may take generations by generations , but at the end the Justice will prevail..

as said thousands years ago "super omnia vincit veritas" – "truth conquers all"

Johann From South Africa   January 12th, 2009 1036 GMT

What type of nation murder innocent women and children? (sic)

ben   January 12th, 2009 1037 GMT

yes yes yes liar they didn't admit believe that lie

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1038 GMT

we should not try to tell the "truth" to a mossad agent anyways..

miriam   January 12th, 2009 1041 GMT

"Truth conquers above all".

I hope it does.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1042 GMT

and one of the real reasons of US & ISRAELI invasion of Gaza :

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11680

guess what... off-shore natural gas reserves of course..

Johann From South Africa   January 12th, 2009 1043 GMT

i read a report earlier that israel requested permission and certain assistance from the usa to attack iran! What's up with them?(Israel) Are they trying to pick a fight with everyone?
Israel reminds me of that small kid at school that always looked for trouble with the other kids and once provoked a fight, runs to his big brother (USA)

miriam   January 12th, 2009 1046 GMT

The Turk,

No, it's the gold. That's why Hamas has been digging under every house in Gaza!!!!!

ben   January 12th, 2009 1048 GMT

Miriam read this people of conscious souls what they say about you:

“We consider ourselves to be comrades in arms to the Palestinian Arabs in their struggle for the liberation of Palestine. There is not a single citizen in South Africa who is not ready to stand by his Palestinian brothers in their legitimate fight against the Zionist racists.” — Nelson Mandela

“I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from practical consideration, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain — especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state.” — Albert Einstein, 1932.

“My sympathies are all with the Jews…But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me…Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.” — Gandhi, 1938

Sunantha   January 12th, 2009 1051 GMT

Though I live far away from the battle field, I share the fear of the children and the despair of the parents who don't even have any choices to protect their children. I wish this stupid battle and bomb stop immediately. I don't understand who will gain when lots of people are suffering. Hope 'no more war' and people live in peace.

esther   January 12th, 2009 1051 GMT

That.s the problem with Midle East you always talk with simplified speeches like winners and loosers, always using words like revenge, anger, death and this is a situation too complex for that simplification...

PEACE is all what you need. In Latinamerica jewish and arabs live in peace respecting each other, even with all the problems we have in this crazy region, different religions can live peacefully here, no arabs or jewish trying to kill each other.

The key is to learn that everybody has rights to live keeping their religion, traditions and opinions as long as everybody respect each other and nobody harm inocents.

No Hamas killing people, No Hezbollah killing people and No Iraeli Army killing people... Nobody has right to destroy another community just because religion or ethnic reasons and this apply equal to Israel Army and Hamas and Hezbollah... So lets be rational and stop the violence both sides.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1051 GMT

you are right .. it is a war crime to dig wholes under houses...

"the clear conscience" tells us so it is..

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1051 GMT

I just heard that the brave Hamas fighters who have joined their brothers in hell have been given 72 unfired rockets each. They couldn't find anymore virgins, especially little boys. The demand was too high. I hear they share the fire with their hero Adolf Hitler.

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/musnazi.html

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1058 GMT

Jonas?

do have news and info connection from Hell?...

Do you have any relations to the top management of Hell?

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1100 GMT

The Turk,
Yes, his name is Mohammed. Direct line.

Carlos   January 12th, 2009 1101 GMT

What is happening in Gaza is an height pf BARBARIANISM. I am myslef a jew based in Argentina. I feel ashamed of this barbarious acts by the strongest nation with the best and latest ammunitions. Whom they are killing? Helpless and Homeless people.

I think we have frgotte the Holocaust. We are good learners and stuents. We have learned from Germans and are doing the same. Shame on our people.

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 1105 GMT

"War criminals and baby killers do not deserve resting in peace either.."

the murderer of shalheet paz, the 10 months old baby girl in her fathers arms, murdered by a palestinian sharpshooter terrorist

the murderers of the pregnant mother and her four daughters by headshots, murdered by palestinian terrorists

the mob, including palestinian policemen, who lynched and then mutilated the bodies of the two reserve soldiers who made a wrong turn in ramallah

those who sent the disco bomber who murdered 23 young boys and girls, those who sent the suicide bomber to natanya where he murdered 21 people who had gathered for a religious holiday, those who sent the suicide bomber to haifa, where he murdered innocent patrons of a restaurant, including arabs!!!

etc etc etc

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1109 GMT

لا حول ولا قوة الا بالله

ben   January 12th, 2009 1110 GMT

Jonas

its typical zionist response to curse, when they have no more lies to spread, or having no answers to questions or comments directed to like the Albert Einstein's above.

And i suggest before speaking or telling any thing about your master Mr. Adolph Hitler you should bow.

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 1111 GMT

a suicide bomber arrives in paradise and is confronted with his 72 virgins

he complains to the keeper that all are extremely ugly

the keeper explains: " why do you think they are still virgins?"

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1111 GMT

Oh Jonas, you have been tricked by Hell's top manager...

Mohammed, Jesus and Moses are by Gods side sitting and cursing on you..

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1113 GMT

Ben
Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer!

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1114 GMT

Mohammad Al Adura , was murdered when he was on his father lab.by the same Army of cowards and Ayoub swam on his mother blood for four days and this on this war.... your crime is louder and more vicious.

Its your style to claim not to kill Christ ... ask Gibson.

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1114 GMT

"The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures."

Adolf Eichmann`s deputy Dieter Wisliceny in his Nuremberg Trials testimony.

Professor   January 12th, 2009 1118 GMT

The boad carrying medical supplies and doctors is getting ready to leave Lebanon now heading back to Gaza in another attempt to break the Israeli blockade on Gaza. Pray for them to arrive safely.

Professor   January 12th, 2009 1119 GMT

Oh and I forgot to mention

Its the occupation stupids...

Professor   January 12th, 2009 1122 GMT

The Nazi Israeli Forces are still digging their graves deeper in hell.

ben   January 12th, 2009 1122 GMT

there comes the big satan teacher dan perman, so what the zionists are doing now its a revenge to the mentioned killings above?

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1122 GMT

The Turk,
Our information is diffinitely not the same. My connections tell me that there is only God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. No mention of Mohammed. Unless, of course, you phone the other number where you will find Adolf and a whole array of Islamic extremists.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1123 GMT

Professor,

Do you have an idea on how many one where there with Moses Peace be upon him when he opened the sea. any figure ...

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 1124 GMT

hunk,

you do not inform youself well

a french court recently found that there are great doubts about the version shown on french TV and later all over.

so try not to spread false allegations, will you?

Bossman   January 12th, 2009 1125 GMT

I really dont understand what kind of war is this.. IDF dont kill militants but civilians, mostly women and children.. The millitants rockets takes more than 4 munites before its fires... so just imagine even if the person is taking a 4 munites walk. How long will he walk.. ?They will destroy the whole of GAZA without achieving their ultimate goal.. Let the IDF come out clear and say we are killing your people as a punishment for the rockets , Because nobody see this as a war.. Why should they stop and allow medical aid and continue to kill the same sick and crippled who have been treated... I think only God knows why this disastrous situation is going on i GAZA. Its true they are disturbing ISRAEL with attacks, but the situation can be solved by some kind of talks.. Moslems or arabs in europe are quite different though some are problematics but we dont need them more up here. Too much refugee and the bad ones plan terror against humanity which is not fair.. LET THERE BE PEACEFUL RELATIONS....

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 1128 GMT

i am honored to be called a teacher

i am also happy to note that ben agrees the perpetrators of these heinous crimes must be punished, thaks ben for your support on this matter

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1128 GMT

Poor.

There are hundreds millions of real human beings watching and cursing on Israeli war criminals. There are enough people immune to that Israels poisonous PR propaganda.

We understand thoroughly pro-Israeli feelings of guilt and anger. It is the same feeling of convicted standing in front of the court of Justice.

Unfortunately, there you have no place among the humanist communities.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1131 GMT

Dan perman,

Couldn't understand you, false allegation and french TV .... have you dialed the correct number ?

ben   January 12th, 2009 1132 GMT

Jonas:

Do you think Nelson Mandela, Albert Einstein and Gandhi are stupid to say what they have said??

because after that blog you started cursing!!!

miriam   January 12th, 2009 1133 GMT

Ben,

Einstein was a Zionist. You obviously don't understand the quote here.
He supported the Balfour declaration and had reservations about the idea of dividing up the British Mandate.

This quote refers to his discomfort with the idea that a Jewish state would have to exist in defined borders and need to have an army to defend herself. His ideal was for a Jewish homeland where Jews could live in peace with her Arab neighbours and with no need to have borders that needed defending.

He supported Israel when it was founded and reluctantly turned down the offer to become president, citing his lack of inter-personary skills.

He bequeathed his will to the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 1134 GMT

22.5.2008

French broadcaster France2 lost its case and a large portion of its credibility yesterday when its appeals court called their Al-Dura story a hoax and reversed a lower-court ruling on a defamation case. Philippe Karsenty was vindicated in his criticism of France2 when he called their video of a supposed murder of a Palestinian child by Israeli soldiers staged for propaganda purposes. As PJM’s Richard Landes notes, the entire unedited footage of France2 contained a long series of laughably staged “injuries”, prompting him to refer to France2 as “Pallywood”:
The French court of appeals, presided over by the redoubtable Madame Laurence Trébucq, has reversed the decision of a lower court — the (in)famous “Chambre 17″ that specializes in verbal crimes had found Philippe Karsenty guilty of defaming France2 after Karsenty, in a 2004 article, claimed (as have many familiar with the dossier), that the scene was staged. The unexpected reversal by the court of appeals represents the first major European breach of the blanket of silence that has greeted any effort of critics to call into question France2’s presentation of the Al Dura footage as actual news.
The Muhammad al Durah affair represents one of the most revealing and distressing cases in the mainstream media’s coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict. On September 30, 2000, France2’s Middle East correspondent, Charles Enderlin, ran footage of what looked like a boy and his father, together hiding behind a barrel, “the target of fire coming from the Israeli position.” According to this report, the boy was killed and the father badly wounded. The footage went around the world instantly, provoking outrage and violence against both Israel and Jewish communities in the Arab world and in Europe.
France2 compounded these violations of journalistic ethics by attempting to block any criticism. Ridiculing the proponents of the “staged hypothesis” as conspiracy theorists on the order of 9-11 truthers or holocaust deniers, France2 sued independent French citizens who had the nerve to criticize them for their journalistic incompetence. …
France2’s legal maneuver backfired when they were called to show the court the raw footage of their Palestinian cameraman, Talal abu Rahmah, whose camera work and testimony lie at the heart of the accusation against the Israeli army. They found themselves forced to cut the most embarrassing scenes before showing the footage to the court, and to explain to the court why the remaining footage had so many suspicious

miriam   January 12th, 2009 1137 GMT

The same France2 that last week admitted using false footage for a supposed attack by Israel in Gaza.

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1140 GMT

Professor? Professor?, Professor?
Nazis? Please my supporter of the brave Hamas fighters, the facts are not in your favor. As the Palestinians people were great supporters of the anti-Christ Adolf Hitler, don't you think that it is a bit rich of you to call Jews by that term? Perhaps your forefathers could explain the term "Nazism" to you. They embraced it with open arms.

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 1140 GMT

continued

had so many suspicious scenes.
The reversal and the resultant implosion of France2’s credibility shows the lengths that some will go to paint the Israelis as the source of all woe in the region. Instead of reporting objective truth, the “journalists” at France2 decided to propagate lies as a means of telling the narrative they prefer. They couldn’t actually find examples of Israeli soldiers deliberately killing unarmed children, but France2 believed that they did, so they staged it and passed it off as truth. And unfortunately, they found many people who believed them despite the many inconsistencies in the video — such as the child moving after his supposed death and the lack of blood in the scene, rather odd for a gut shot.
The reversal upholds an important principle for freedom of speech — the freedom of criticism. Karsenty dared to criticize France2 for their hoax, and the broadcaster decided to wage a campaign of intimidation against him rather than attempt to defend its propaganda. They succeeded in the lower court and could have forced Karsenty into silence. Instead, Karsenty persevered and eventually forced France2 to release all of its footage, a step they had resisted from the first. That showed the depth of dishonesty not just for the team that created the al-Dura hoax, but for the entire organization that deliberately hid the truth and tried to silence Karsenty through legal action.

shairoz   January 12th, 2009 1142 GMT

This suicide rhetoric is so lame – especially since it is coming from non-muslims...and lamer still when it comes from ignorant muslims. I suggest that if you want to comment on details of another's religion that you do your homework from proper sources.

It's bizarre that an unqualified laymen would try and do an assessment or commentary on details of scripture. Get off it, because it undermines your credibility. And to clarify what you clearly choose to misunderstand and propagate:

Islam (Submission) condemns suicide as much as it condemns oppression and aggression against others. While the Muslims (Submitters) are commanded to stand for their rights and defend themselves, their properties and their freedom they are told to first resort to peace advocate tolerance and disregard the ignorant. The following verses from the Quran show how the Quran describes suicide, such an important issue in our life that was made the center of the conflict in the Middle East lately.

(2:195) You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.

(4:29) O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly – only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.

(4:30) Anyone who commits these transgressions, maliciously and deliberately, we will condemn him to Hell. This is easy for GOD to do.

Suicide bombing by young uninformed Muslim youths has been carried out almost routinely as a mean of revenge in the Middle East conflict. It is mainly done to avenge their oppression, occupation and loss of freedom they have been experiencing all their life. It is carried out by the youth who lost all the hope to a peaceful settlement as they witnessed their families, loved ones, neighbors, and the innocent bystanders die or tortured at the hand of a merciless occupying force. Despite these intolerable situation no permission can be found in Islam to avenge by suicide bombing or by targeting the innocent civilians. These young desperate Muslim youth have been taught what is NOT in the Quran, and what was never promised by God in the Holy book.

As the verses quoted above show, suicide in any form is condemned by God, no excuse given under any circumstances. The Quran does not promise Heaven (Paradise) to those who commit suicide but rather warn of condemnation to Hell. The promise of paradise or of virgin wives in Heaven for those suicide bombers and those who kill the innocent civilians has no basis in Islam and cannot be found anywhere in the Quran. These fabrications taught to these poor desperate Muslim youths originated probably from the man made books of Hadiths and Sunna that were condemned by God and by the prophet Muhammad himself who told his followers to follow ONLY the Quran.

Suicide is a state of disbelief and loss of faith that is condemned by God throughout the Quran. In the Quran, God commands the believers never to despair or lose hope and instead work for a brighter future.

(12:87) "....................... None despairs of GOD's grace except the disbelieving people.

http://www.submission.org/jihad/suicide.html

ben   January 12th, 2009 1144 GMT

Jonas

Is Mosses not with them, only God, Jessus & Holy Ghost, you stupid.

Maybe with the others, what do you think? stupid infidel.

Dan

yes you are a great teacher of Satan, i am greatful you are how honoured .

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1145 GMT

dan perman,

Its was never confirmed ... its doubtful ... but any suspicion is for the defendant .... .

john germany   January 12th, 2009 1153 GMT

Whatever one´s affiliation, my heart aches for the people of Gaza. "The turbid ebb and flow of human misery", in a poet´s eye. This same poet then writes..... "for the world, which seems to lie before us like a land of dreams, so various so beautiful so new – hath really neither joy, nor hope, nor love, nor light, nor certitude, nor peace....nor help for pain." The clash of ignorant armies continues.... What a sorry state is humankind.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1153 GMT

Oh God help the children, Dan Perman is allowed to brainwash children. Here comes another generation of Islamophobes.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikum_olam/2006/9/23/shooting-spree-at-florida-mosque/

This will show the coverage of one of many islamic mosques targeted by racist groups. So I'm not surprised to see so many people expressing their hatred for islamic people. After all.. they have brown skin, and the european jews in israel have pale skin. It's no surprise to me at all that so many Americans would support Israel, even though they broke the cease fire first. And even though they; force Palestine to get minimal amounts of aide and defence suppliments from underground tunnels because they have blockaded ports surrounding Gaza for the last year; Americans will still find a reason to support Israel. Some even try to use the Bible. Some people are actually dumb enough to misinterpret the Holy Bible enough to support evil deeds. It does not matter who is doing it. Do any of you think Christ would condone this behavior from Israel today. Because I don't. Meanwhile, the Jews don't care why you support them, as long as you do. In fact. They sit back and laugh! Why? Because they refer to non Jews as Goyim. This means human cattle. It means that Everyone in the rest of the world are either soul-less, or the spawn of satan. So just keep being blind obediants. Your government thanks you, and Israel thanks you.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1159 GMT

Jonas,

What does your God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost, commented about "Inquisition : the honorable ways of successful removal of devil from Body and Soul of the 27 million Christians" ?

Do they support it ?

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 1200 GMT

Nona, sorry I missed you, Nice to meet you too.

ben   January 12th, 2009 1201 GMT

Miriam

Even you lie on something written crystal clear by a zionist??? what do you think you know english than an english man?? or is it another definition of stupid liar.

by the way how about you translate Nelson Mandela and Gandhi comments for us to understand??

Dan Perman, Miriam

Maybe France 2 is operated by pro Hamas members?

You know even calling you liars will be unfair to you, because you have overpassed its meaning.

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1201 GMT

Ben,
Normally, I would let you drown in the depths of your own ignorance, but your brainless response and obvious lack of knowledge of the Christian faith wants me to respond. God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost is the Trinity. Three-in-one, One-in-three. Understand? Moses is not God. I don't use the word stupid lightly, but boy, are you stupid or what?

miriam   January 12th, 2009 1201 GMT

CS

If you spent any time in the Middle East, you'd know that not all Arabs or Muslims are 'dark-skinned.' Nor are all European Jews 'pale-skinned'.

Goy, singular for goyim, means 'nation'. It was used refering to the Jewish nation before being used to refer to any other nation.

More lies.

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 1204 GMT

goodmorning everyone.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1205 GMT

Jonas. Do you beleive that Governments represent their people anymore? If you do, I just ask you to take a look at president Bush's approval ratings among The American public. Throughout history, the powers that be have done what they wanted to...not what was best for the people. Like the hebrew leaders of the days of my savior, Jesus Christ. They ordered the slaying of the one who performed miracles right before them. I mean I have to go on faith, but those murderers had proof of it all, and they still killed the son of the living God. The people did not want this, just as I'm sure the people of Palestine don't want war.
And I know..you're going to come back with "THEN WHY DID THEY VOTE FOR HAMAS?" My answer to this is simple. They would rather fight for their freedom, than beg for it. Those people are, and have been being opressed by a NAZI regim since 1948. I know Hamas is not the most diplomatic group...But at least they will fight for their rights instead of begging for them.

miriam   January 12th, 2009 1206 GMT

Ben,

I'm not the one lying. You wanted an explanation and you got it. It's the truth and you can twist it as much as you want, but you can't change it.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1208 GMT

Jonas,

what is interesting is that Jesus become God in 325 AD after the declaration of Constantin the Emperor ( who was Sun-God follower at that time ) in Nikea Consul.. very interesting..

ben   January 12th, 2009 1215 GMT

CHRIST killers:

There is a scriptural basis for the "Jews killed Jesus" claim:

Now it was the governor's custom at the Feast to release a prisoner chosen by the crowd. At that time they had a notorious prisoner, called Barabbas.

So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, "Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?" For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him.

While Pilate was sitting on the judge's seat, his wife sent him this message: "Don't have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him."

But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.

"Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" asked the governor. "Barabbas," they answered.

"What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked. They all answered, "Crucify him!"

"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children".

CS   January 12th, 2009 1216 GMT

Miriam. Technically, Goy means Gentile, or non-Jew. But as I have grown up boardering a city that is predominantly Hacedic, my many previous encounters with collegues, friends and just every day dealings have confirmed that Gentiles were as "cattle" to them. Not significant, less than, not fovored by God, etc, etc. Which is funny to me, because, in the books of Kings, and Chronicles, it seems that your people have really angered God..what with all the worshipping of baal, and Sodam and Gomorrah, and the whole..constantly forsaking God thing.

Elie Raymond   January 12th, 2009 1218 GMT

Sorry to hear about your and your families plight just as I am sorry to hear the families running for sheler every time a KASSAM is on its way
Hope that yours and our suffering end soon

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1218 GMT

The Turk,
Wow, do we have to go that far back? I'm not sure what the official stance of the Pope is, but I, as a descendant of the persecuted Christians, certainly don't think that I would support it. As I'm not a Catholic, I don't know how their inner circles work.

blood is red   January 12th, 2009 1220 GMT

Palestinians are sinking in a sea of misery and world turn out to be colorblind with pink sunglasses made in USA supplied by Israel!

nernd   January 12th, 2009 1223 GMT

I am German of jewish decent and I have to ask with all the media coverage and all the demonstrating, who was demonstrating and where was the media in all the time rocketrs hit Israel?? Where where all the demosntrates when Hamas declared that Isreal has no right to excist? when a president of a nation, Iran, declares Israel shoud be wiped off the map? this lunatic has possibly nuclear weapons soon.
No media no demonstration than, only now when israel rightfully defends itself, it is exremly bad for the normal people, but they support Hamas. remember when Germany was liberated from a war criminal and bombs fell on Germany, not all Germans where Nazis, but most of them stayed quieter in the years of terror, should the than Allied forces not have attacked Germany? In such a case the result would have been devastating.
I think most people are loosing a little focus here, Hamas is a terror network, the US is fighting a war in Irak, the Nato is figthing a war in Afganistan against Terror, why is Isreal not permitted to defend itself??
I hope peace will come, the price is high, but Hamas has to except Israel to achieve peace.
I shall pray for Israel and its people, but also for the innocent in Gaza and that they will see Hamas for what it is

CS   January 12th, 2009 1223 GMT

Who was it who assisted Judas, in the capture of Christ? Why was Christ even placed under arrest?
When Jesus went into the temple and tuned the tables of the money changers over, and called them what they were "HYPOCRITES!", this, and the fact that the hebrew leaders were very vain, and insisted that their ways of worshiping and living were more devine than the Christ himself.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1225 GMT

Blood. Nicely put.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1230 GMT

Well Jonas, you have much to say about Mohammed then Jesus...?

( remember your curses above? )

You are not Catholic Christian... but a Christian right..?

and you have much "knowledge" of Mohammed then Jesus?... very interesting..

I was raised as muslim ( now a-theist ) .. read every sacred book.. old testament, new testament, torah, kur'an... even heretic gospels ( gospel of Judas as well ) ... just to open my eyes on the truth...

And I feel so deeply sorry for your blind and foolish ignorance and darkness about facts and truth...

I am deeply condemning your poisonous, disrespectful, low, satanic ( which I dont believe exists either ) dark thoughts about others beliefs..

shame on you..

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1232 GMT

Ben,
As Miriam said, believe what you like! I'm sure that if I had the inclination to find "interesting" facts about Islam, there would be no shortage. One very interesting fact is that many more innocent men, women and children have been murdered by Muslims, in the name of their God, than by all the other religions combined. And to make matters worse, many of the murdered were Muslims.

ben   January 12th, 2009 1238 GMT

Jonas

So who is stupid the one who believes in one God or three Gods in one?? No i don't understand Trinity one in three and three in one, maybe Moses was a God too? what do you know?

Miriam

still on denial, girl have they done a good work on you, poor little thing, see how a liar defines goyim.

Turk

Thanks for your input to Jonas the Infidel.

CS:

You are going nowhere (end of road) with MIRIAM THE (LIAR) ZIONIST

anonymous   January 12th, 2009 1239 GMT

perhaps we should all be asking ourselves why it is that hamas places themselves and their activities smack in the middle of civilians in places such as schools, mosques, etc. why do they hide behind the women and children who they are claiming are being killed in this war? if the terrorist leaders really cared about innocent victims, they would not be launching terrorist in such close proximity to civilians!

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1247 GMT

Jonas,

you are so wishfully thinking, ignorant and wrong..

islam ordered the message be transfered to "infidels" ( means non-believers of the message, christians and hebrew ARE believers. )

Real enmity between islam and Christianity started after 16th century after being brutally attacked by Napoleon in Egypt..

Real enmity between Christians and Islam started at 7th century ...

see the difference ?

and besides... if you calculate the sum of deaths on behalf of religion , please sum up :

Inka and Indians by Spanish in S.America... ( millions? )
Indians in N. America ( tens of millions )
Japan by US ( two test bombs were enough for a million )
Jews, Muslims, Roma by Inquisitors in Europe( tens of millions )
Africans by Europeans ( 15th to 20th century )( hundreds of millions )

ohh I forgot to name Weapons of Mass Destructions ( WMD ) made-in-US can not be scaled by defensive Weapons of Self Destructions ( WSD )

bernd   January 12th, 2009 1253 GMT

lets forget three gods or one etc, fact remains, Hamas, Alquiada Iran etc all are terrorist organisations and they have vowed to kill jews and all those who do not conform in the ways of there thinking. I refuse to let anybody tell me how to live and what to do, this includes all relions, religion is a personal choice and should stay personal and if you choose to live by it , fine, but do not impose on others or start a war because of your religion. Fact remains Hamas attacked Isael and it does not accept the state of Isreal, now its time for Isreal to defend itself.

Fawad Ali   January 12th, 2009 1255 GMT

Lately, I am not doing much commenting, neither CNN and rest of the media is covering the Gaza conflict with the zest they had demonstrated in the beginning, anyway, these are the updated facts

Israelis are using Chemicals to kill as many as possible…….. White phosphorus

Americans did that too, but we have seen American public condemned the people who authorized the use- Rumsfeld is considered as one of the most nefarious name

And now (for the last few weeks) Israel has crossed the threshold of brutality and it’s time to enforce a change in Israel and a policy toward Israel……

The reality is: Israel is ruled by people who are willing to do anything just to fulfill their appetite of Killing Palestinians and grabbing their land and forcing them to live in unbearable situation.

Of course Americans have provided Israel with an opportunity to make life hell in Palestinians territories and only Americans can stop Israelis

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1256 GMT

The Turk,
As you are an atheist, I cannot take anything you say seriously. All I know is that your curses are meaningless. And please understand, I don't believe in the prophet Mohammed, I'm a Christian. My religion and the Muslim religion are fundamentally different. We don't believe in the same God. So, I cannot be disrespectful to someone or something that doesn't exist. Also remember, there are at least 6 billion people in the world who also don't believe in the Islamic faith. Also remember, 95% of the 6 billion people will always choose the Jews above the Muslims as the Jews don't call us infidels and they are not forcing their religion down our throats. However, infidel, in my book is a compliment, proves that I'm not a Muslim. Muslims will have to learn that their religion is not the only one in the world and that they must live with others.

mohammed gharbawi   January 12th, 2009 1258 GMT

hi jonas

ben   January 12th, 2009 1258 GMT

So...now we know that

JONAS THE( INFIDEL) NON-CHRISTIAN, AND MIRIAM THE (LIAR) ZIONIST.

Are saying every innocent man, woman and child killed in this world its done by Muslims in the name of their God, and most of the killed are Muslims....whom are we blogging here with?

bernd   January 12th, 2009 1259 GMT

@ali
and of course the terrorist acts around the world Trade Center NY, Bali Spain etc. one could go on, have been comitte by the tooth fairy??? just think about this before spreading stories like you do in your last comment, I only agree with one thing, the war in Irak was unjust.

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 1301 GMT

hunk, cs,ben

you are pathetic

your propaganda lies will get you nowhere

and for the record

i don't give a sh*t of what you think

Deborah Al-Qanai   January 12th, 2009 1303 GMT

I am from the United States and am embarrassed with what is happening in Gaza. I like alot of Americans do not stand with Israel in what they are doing to the people of Gaza. I am appalled now with Israel bombing with chemicals and all I can think about are the poor people with their skin peeling off. God forgive them for what they are doing! I as a human being ask God to bless them with conviction of sin and repent and turn back for mankind sake. I have written a letter to President Bush, U.N., and CNN in support of the people of Gaza. I think if more people of the world speak up and write to their governments something may be done. Enshallah!

Fawad Ali   January 12th, 2009 1303 GMT

Jonas,

lets limit the argument to the crisis at hand 'Israel's brutality against human beings'

oferdesade   January 12th, 2009 1307 GMT

looking for golda quotes:

"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."

I challenge any reader to show me one instance of Arab mass condemnation of the killing of Jewish children as there already is in Israel for the deaths caused in Gaza – even at present, in the midst of a battle that seems to have a wider-than-usual consensus within a nation known for its inability to foster a consensus (there's even a joke: ask 2 jews, get 3 answers).

the killing of children is inexcusable – even if, as in the case of the IDF, it's inadvertent.
the mere targeting of children, even when using ineffective scuds, is fiendish.
hiding behind a child and letting him/her be killed in your stead is the act of a coward who should eternally burn in hell.

i somehow doubt even the most downtrodden of gazites would argue.

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 1307 GMT

fawad ali

i forgot you

you are even worse

sbaa   January 12th, 2009 1309 GMT

oh my god why all this whyyyyyyyyyy , we can live in peace but we dont want why !!! money – positions – rotten wht else etc etc

mohammed gharbawi   January 12th, 2009 1310 GMT

you still debate

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1313 GMT

Jonas,

there are 1.100 billion( ref: The World Almanac (1997)) muslims in the world..( makes almost % 20 )

Believing to other faith does not give you right to curse any other belief system.. If you do, You are accepting "counter-curse".

Actualy, If you would dare to read about Islam , you would easyly see that it is ( somehow ) based on the same principals and facts of Christianity then Jewish...

You may choose to be Christian or Muslim by personal acceptance, but you are only "born" to be Jewish... What is different and more racist here is not Christianity and Islam, by definition.

besides, what is in Gaza happening, is much beyond beliefs.. it is now in the level of humanity and animal-ity..

it is all up to you to choose "your" right..

Barham   January 12th, 2009 1314 GMT

Jonas """as the Jews don’t call us infidels and they are not forcing their religion down our throats."""

Who is trying to force their religion down your throats!! China is an atheist state by majority and no one trying to force his religion upon their throat!! This is about ""occupation"" expelling Palestinians, and racist discrimination by Jews against Palestinians. not about religion differences and bad guys as you like to imagine it, to protect your biased morality. and extremism is in the eye of th beholder, did you ever heard what Zionists say??

Barry Greene   January 12th, 2009 1317 GMT

to ALL you sanctimonious dingbats
"just a few "rockets...EVER BEEN UNDER constant rocket barrages,indescriminate explosions,Hamas has had every opportunity to stop this and elected to continue -for years
NONE of you have a semblance of what you wrote about
Get the facts,digest them,and THEN comment

bernd   January 12th, 2009 1318 GMT

et al
it is about terroist acts, not religion, no religion advocates the killing of people, simple but a fraction of muslims have taken the Koran and use it for their weapon and unfotunatly there are many stupid people in this world they will beleave such propaganda, even today with all the media, 60 million germans beleaved one man an its fanatic reasons to start a war which cost the lives of millions of people and the part destruction of Europe, fanatics of all walks of life or religion are not good for this world

Barham   January 12th, 2009 1319 GMT

Dan perman, """i don’t give a sh*t of what you think"""

Dont you own anything better to say to protect your lost morality and lame cause else than this?!!!

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1321 GMT

it is all about occupation , proven by United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, 1967... and it is all about trick-lies of Israel and its PR activities to blind-fold ignorant western voters to get maximum support to their crimes.

ben   January 12th, 2009 1322 GMT

Dan the (Honorable) Satan Teacher,
Miriam the (Liar) Zionist,
Jonas the (Infidel) Non-Christian,

We don't care if you don't give a sh*t of what we think, actually it was not expected from such people as you, so keep cursing when you have nonsense replies, or you have no further lies.

mohammed gharbawi   January 12th, 2009 1322 GMT

ok

Barham   January 12th, 2009 1324 GMT

Barry Greene,

Do you know that Israel killed –6000– Palestinians in the last 8 years alone!! try Google facts, before you are brainwashed by propaganda of innocent Israel! did we ever heard your sound before about the 6000 Palestinians killed by Israel?

mohammed gharbawi   January 12th, 2009 1330 GMT

Dan
is this a forum for insults. Look for a decent job. You are surely jobless. Let people debate and profit form this stimulating experience. Or may be youll ask us about the jewish pregnant woman who was ****** and killed.

Angry Nubian   January 12th, 2009 1336 GMT

Akiva,

Very interesting synopsis about a "chosen people".

Check the BBC or do an internet search about a PAST TV series/program called the "Lost tribes of Israel". This is what the director said who himself is a Jew "There are no chosen people"

Again the lost tribes of Israel reside in all parts of the world including mostly Africa, IraqIran, the Caribbean and other parts of the world.

If these European countries had gone and brought these lost tribe back to Israel the outcome would have been different with total PEACE- PEACE- PEACE without question.

The Eurpean Isrealis found it convenient to bring a few of the REAL Ethiopian Jews back to Israel and even then they had to prove they were Jewish.

How arrogant are these war mongers? Mind you some of the most peacefyul human beings in the world reside in Israel. They are the ones who the blessed peacemakes. Biblical verse "Blessed are the peace makers for they shall inherit the earth"

The British and other powers that be wanted a state with people looking like them (white) and that is what happened.

Even though I do believe the holocaust occured, Israel is using the holocaust as a guilt trip on the US, Canada and other European countries to get away with getting aid and symphathy and murdering brown skin people.who had nothing to do with the holocaust.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1337 GMT

a question @ all here...

who wants here the peace between Israelis and Palestinians? ( what ever the way )

Fidel   January 12th, 2009 1338 GMT

I do not understand the Medie ; when the barrel of petrol goes up 40$ ..itis because of ISRAEL Gaza conflict......Today it is below 38$

Is it also Because of ISRAEL?

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1339 GMT

I want it, once and for all... now..

Ephraim   January 12th, 2009 1341 GMT

After eight years, the Arabs finally get a taste of their own medicine, and now they're confused and bewildered that someone finally stood up to them.

We'll never submit to the Islamic Apartheid system. We'll never surrender our freedom to our Arab tormentors. Long live Israel!

Barham   January 12th, 2009 1342 GMT

I want peace, with equal rights on both side, including the right to return for Palestinians.

Glen Rico   January 12th, 2009 1345 GMT

I just want to write a short comment to everybody reading. So much efforts, so much protests, so much anger and hate against Israel for what it is happening in Gaza, but no words about the hundreds of thousands starving, mistreated and dieing in Zimbabwe. No voice raising against Mugabe. UN what are you doing to solve this problem?
Two UN aid workers were killed in Gaza and immediately the aid was stopped because Israel was hold responsible for this fact.
But when in Somalia 2 UN aid workers were also killed by the militia, the UN did not stop any aid to Somalia. Is this a matter of two weights and two measures, or is it because it is Israel the problem.

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1347 GMT

The Turk,
I'm tired of curses. I don't believe in them.
Ben.
Correction. I'm JONAS (CHRISTIAN). I don't think that you read my posting very well. Your assumptions are wrong!
Barham,
China has many problems with Islamic extremists in the country. They have killed and captured many in the last years. Yes, China is an atheistic state, but there are millions of Muslims, Christians, Buddhists and Hindus in China.
To make a long story short, I believe that Hamas is to blame for the death of the women and children in Gaza. I also believe that they are using the woman and children as human shields. I also believe that given the record of Muslim extremists, like Hamas, they don't care about the right to life, including that of moderate Muslims.
CS
I’m proudly an infidel, although someone on this blog told me that Muslims don’t call Christians infidels.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1349 GMT

You are right Glen Rico,

We must unite to fight peacefully for peace against all kinds of suppression, occupation and suffering, and shout out loud.

ben   January 12th, 2009 1352 GMT

Anonymous:

Gaza is 40km long x 10k wide, where do you want them to go? And who is telling you they are in schools or in mosques? the ZIONISTS?

Bernd

Lets forget the three into one Gods, and the definition of terrorist given by the west double standards of Iran, Hamas, Al Gaeda, Muslims, and Islam doesnt force its religion to anyone, but force out occupiers from their land. So tell your fruitcake friends to go back where they came from, or face extintion in Palestine or any other Muslim land. And preach your beliefs to your own people.

Oferdesade:

We are not democratic...remember.. plus we don't have a Golda heart? go find you something else to quote or comment on.

Barry Green:

Hamas will resist all occupiers and will not beg for its independence, go and read about the end of occupiers thru out history.

End of story O C C U P I E R S will be thrown out now or latter. stupids.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1353 GMT

Jonas. ARE YOU SERIOUS? So called Christians are responsible for far more death and destruction, than any other religious group. Which is quite a feat considering that other religions have been here for longer. Since I deal in facts (which is why some of you get angry and speak in bold print, like I'm supposed to be impressed), let's look at history. Starting with the crusades. Then let's look at what Columbus did (murder rape and enslave brown Indians from two continents and several Islands), look at apartheid, look at what happened to the Native American Indian, look at the African slave trade, look at Englands opression of Scotland, Ireland, India, .. hell' everybody, look at Hiroshima/Nagasaki, look at vietnam, look at Iraq (two wars that did not need to be faught), look at KKK/skinheads, and other so-called Christian groups, OH! let's not forget Hitler, who also claimed to be a Christian, Stalin...I mean the list goes on and on. So called-Christians/Catholics, have gone on a millenium long reign of terror, worldwide. You speak of the Muslims fighting over their own land from pre-biblical times, but at least they stay in theri own neighborhood for the most part. And Israel is a close second. Let's look at what has been going on in Lebanon, Their support for the Iraq war, the expulsion of Palestinians from their own land in 1948, and as of late, the Nazi's are talking about Iran.
Let me tell you. Messing with Iran is a whole different ball game than These other small nations. Iran is a true opponent, and has resources and allies. This is exactly why Israel/U.S. approaches Iran so tenderly, because they are true bullies (cowards) The U.S. wants another Vietnam, as much as Israel wants another Lebanon.
But back to your foolish notion that Muslims are responsible for the most carnage...I only spoke of wars, and crimes against humanity. I did'nt get into the manufacture of Nukes, chemical warfare, biological warfare, the creation of certain viruses, and the systematic destruction of our planet.

Before you speak, you should think.

bernd   January 12th, 2009 1355 GMT

true statements of a supporter of terroism, shameful and it does not deserve comments as it speaks for itself

Deborah Al-Qanai   January 12th, 2009 1355 GMT

Yes I too believe Israel is is using the holocaust as a guilt trip but many Christians believe that God told the Jews to go to that land but not to abuse of their power and force their ways on others of other faiths. 'Jews, Muslims and Christians need to live in peace and stop forcing each other with their own ways. Respect for one another and repent for thinking one is better than the other. I mean i don't think God would look down on mankind and think that we all are very God fearing people nor a very good example for those without faith.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1357 GMT

Nubian. I agree. But getting a European Jew or supporter of Israel to admitt that they are nothing more than the stealers of birthwrites of true Israelites, is like getting a murderer to admitt to a crime, in which the prosecution has no murder weapon. They just wont do it. However...fight the power!

Barham   January 12th, 2009 1359 GMT

Jonas,
Again you like to imagine this is about religion, well again it is about Y occupied X land no matter what the F their religion is! do i have to repeat it another time? and im telling you this as Palestinians atheist who is been expelled of his land by Israelis.

Do you know also that many Palestinians Christians where expelled also by Israelis in the 1948 occupation. the percentage of Christians used to be around 18% in inside Palestine land, now inside Israel there almost no Christian minority.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1400 GMT

Debora Al-Qanani. I have some strong views, as I am sure some others do as well, on both sides of the spectrum. However, what you just said was beautiful, and true.

Just Human   January 12th, 2009 1401 GMT

Just my thoughts:
Fear drives us all.
Fear for phisical or emotional pain/harm to us and our loved ones.
Fear leads to "What if" thoughts based on (passed) "knowledge" and trying to predict the future generating negative feelings en depleting our "mental"energie. Fear stops us living in its tracks and keeps us, in our minds, in the past en possible future both of wich are not the present.
Control comes from fear and fear is used to control
There is not "my land" or "your land", just land. It's fear of, for example not heaving enough resources for us and our loved ones for the future, that makes it suddenly "My land".
Violence is often driven from fear.
Hamas, it's statements and actions are a by-product of fear. Fear that lead to violence.
Israel's actions and rhetoric are basted on fear ( example holocaust and hama's ) and lead to violance.
I believe that if you know your fears, where they come from, you can control your anger. Accept pain, and all emotions as part of your life because it's never been ment to be easy. It's making the right dissisions in difficult moments, not based on fear, that will make you grow spiritualy.
Stop living in fear and begin living now. But most importantly help eachother not to fear. "Loved-ones" should be, as impossible as it sounds, all man kind, not just the ones we like.
All easier said than done.. I know, but still....

..and that for an atheist or Infidel... :) Excuse my English

malek   January 12th, 2009 1407 GMT

Can't we all get along?

Deborah Al-Qanai   January 12th, 2009 1408 GMT

Well I am leaving this blog and wish for PEACE for us all. May God help us all here on planet Earth and wake us up to what really needs to happen here!

CS   January 12th, 2009 1409 GMT

Bernd, was the systematic erratication of the Native American Indian not "using the bible " for an excuse to destroy a whole race of people?
I mean after the "pilgrims" got here, and almost strved, the Indians helped them survive and flourish. To what avail? To be called savages, and made to either convert to Christianity, be slaughtered, and the few remaining get to live in concentration camps...I mean reservations. When the Europeans enslaved Africans, and made them convert to their view of "Christianity", was that not Christians using the bible as a "weapon"

HYPOCRITE!

Joan   January 12th, 2009 1412 GMT

It seems to me that if everyone could agree to live in peace, then so much progress could be made for everyone. This war is terrible and it must stop, on all sides.

Hurling insults and bombs doesn't accomplish anything. Although I'd rather have insults than bombs.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1414 GMT

It's amazing how people twist things. When Americans/Israelis/English do things it's "liberating Iraq, and terrorists need to be stopped, and WMD's and the Indians are savages, and Africanc = 2/3 of a man, and women are'nt smart enough to vote." But when Isalamic countries do things it's "Terror" WOW! This, I like to call, "The hypocracy of our democracy"

Barham   January 12th, 2009 1415 GMT

I agree with you Joan

CS   January 12th, 2009 1416 GMT

Joan, when you refer to "hurling bombs" Who do you mean?

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1418 GMT

mohammed gharbawi

Ben
Turk
Cs

I am with Mohammad, lets focus on the cause "AL QADIAH",

There are Arabs among us who are represent the mosaic ... i call on you all for unity .... brothers and sisters.

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1418 GMT

Glen Rico,
You are wasting your time! I asked the same questions two weeks ago and got some very superficial replies. I asked about Darfur, where hundreds of thousands of people (mostly Muslims) have been shot, starved, bombed and raped by the Islamic terrorists. I asked about Nigeria and Morocco where thousands of Christians have been murdered by Islamists. I asked about Zimbabwe where thousands are starving to death and dying of cholera.
Nothing, my brother. Nobody cares. The world only concentrates on Gaza. You see, Palestine is more popular with the politicians. It's ok to murder thousands of the people in Darfur, oppressed by the Islamists, because African lives are cheap.
Also, most of these CNN blogs about the ME are populated by Muslim extremists and their supporters. They only want to insult and attack Israel, driven by their inborn hatred of the Jews. They avoid, very cunningly, the subject of Islamic atrocities like the plague.
You’ll get no sympathy here!

ben   January 12th, 2009 1424 GMT

CS

Very well put lesson to Jonas....but do you think it will go thru his square head....I doubt..

END OCCUPATION NOW.....

The Turk.

I am for ending of occupation and peace will come without any effort and thats from 1948 occupation, nothing less ACCEPTABLE.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1424 GMT

Because if someone tried to starve me and my countrymen, family, broke a cease fire agreement by killing my soldiers, and invading my country 2x during a cease fire, cut electricity which leads to water pumps not working, and many other terrorist acts..I, like many others would be very angry. Where was the U.S./U.N when these things happened? Why di we only hear about it after the fighting starts, and the Islamic country is already painted the agressor. Why is Palestine expected to starve, and beg for equal treatment? Why, when a U.N trucker was bringing supplies to Gaza, was he killed by Israeli fire, and why was this covered so lightly by the mainstream media? Hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites!

Zaid   January 12th, 2009 1425 GMT

Something to add to debate; to be carefully erad and understood !:

This war on the people of Gaza isn’t really about rockets. Nor is it about “restoring Israel’s deterrence,” as the Israeli press might have you believe. Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defence Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/opinion/08khalidi.html?em

fred   January 12th, 2009 1425 GMT

i blame HAMAS for all of this with their suicide by cop attitude. They
have the death of the innocence on their hands as well.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 1426 GMT

It just amazes me to see that Israel (god's chosen people) would think that what they are doing is right. do they think they will kill 1.5 million people and remain the white lamb in the eyes of the world. I think not. the extinction on 1.5 million people can never be justified. to invade a land where all the people have are a few rockets, is not an equal fight. What have they accomplished by this invasion...nothing except kill civilians and enrage folks. Is this the way they expect to accomplish peace by being a bully. But life has been something of a paradox because the underdog always manages to be triumphant.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 1428 GMT

Barham,

I mean anyone who is using any kind of deadly weapon.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 1429 GMT

I wish the world leaders would, somehow, force Hamas to stop firing on Israel and not hide weapons in populated areas. I wish the Israeli soldiers could go back home. I wish unbiased world peacekeepers would go in, put a thirty foot wall between the two and watch both sides. The people of Gaza deserve peace. I also wish the slaughter in Darfur would stop. I see protestors, now, but where have they been while hundreds of thousands have been tortured and kills. Is is fear or indifference?? If Israel couldn't or wouldn't defend itself, it would probably have the same fate.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1430 GMT

Glen Rico,

Why the UN aid workers should be harmed, the 4th Geneva convention guarantee their safety same for the press and should never be touched but should assisted, to reach to the wounded.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1433 GMT

Ben, I was kind of depressed thi morning until i read your response.
I am still laughing as I write this:) And you are right. Maybe we thinkers and apposers of genocide, should band together, and stop trying to reach the opressors, as it is futile. Hunk is right again.
As I said before. They will never admitt to their wrong doing. They already think they're God's gift anyway. I hate no particular groups. Ithink good and bad exists in all cultures. But that's the difference between us and them. They will simply not repent. They are, as the Bible calls them "stiff necked." I am a Christian, but am happy to call Muslim and Jew alike, my brothers, if they are good men or at least aspire to be so. We should probably try to engage the terrorist type as little as we must. Although...it is hard to stand by as someone lies.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 1434 GMT

In a war zone, it's impossible to be completely safe. Hamas continues to fire, from what I hear on the news, during the three hour cease fires so Israel fires back. The press argues they should be there – they know the risks. They realize there are risks.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 1436 GMT

CS

you speak truth and live by facts. I respect you.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1439 GMT

GLeigh. Do you also wish for Israel to stop move the blockades, so that Palestine can get their supplies. As I heard on NPR this moring, there would be no need for tunnels, if there were no blockade.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 1439 GMT

In many countries, we try though it doesn't always happen, to respect and be tolerant of all cultures and religions. Everyone has equal rights, even women. Some cultures don't believe this way or teach their children this way. That's their right. But those who want culture acceptance and equal rights need to be aware of it. The people of Dalfur have the right to peace. So do the people of Gaza.

Calli   January 12th, 2009 1439 GMT

So-called "Christian," was 911 a good day for you?

Christian my ass. Jesus was a Jew and believed in Israel's right to exist. Unlike you and Hamas.

Enjoy life under Sharia.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1441 GMT

When I say terrorist...of course I mean the Israeli government.

Barham   January 12th, 2009 1443 GMT

Jonas said """Morocco where thousands of Christians have been murdered by Islamists."""

Are you true? from where you bring this information? please provide reference!! are they now bombing the Christians civilians in Morocco using artillery shells? please tell so i will defend them, in what blog they are talking about killing Christians Morocco? how many died? from where you have this information? again do you know that 6000 Palestinians killed by Israel in the last 8 years? did you try to defend them before?

And this blog about what is happening in Gaza now, so we talk about Gaza, isnt this how blogs work? not? please educate me. again what is your point here? you want us to stop talking about the killing happening now in Gaza? why?

Deborah Al-Qanai   January 12th, 2009 1443 GMT

CS I am a minority and do have American Indian blood too but if you study the American Indians their loosing was a win for their people today. Yes the American Indians lost alot with those that came to America but when they stopped fighting and were put on those "concentration camps or reservations" as you call them God blessed them with gold, uranium and oil. American Indians don't pay taxes, go to colleges for free, etc.. Yes, I hate what my forefathers from europe did to the Indians but I guess that's what was written and leave it to God to be the judge. As far as the Black Americans are concerned too they were abused but just look where they are now. They too suffered severely but later blessed too. As much as I hate to admit it, it was written and allowed and ask God to be the judge and in the end those ancestors down the line were blessed for the injustices that they endured. May God have mercy and bless the people of Gaza and not let them suffer any longer.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1443 GMT

Christian who is just. Likewise. Now let us continue to send the stinging blow of truth upon the backside of liars:)

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 1444 GMT

911 was not a good day for anyone,but for some like Calli, it was probably the first day their eyes were opened to the political situation of the world.

RG   January 12th, 2009 1446 GMT

Doesn’t any one see beyond their Moslem Ego and pride and instead off only rallying against Israel also try and save lives!!!!
Does anyone really expect any independent state to stand by while a bordering state fires rockets into civilian populations???? What would Saudi do if Jordan shot missiles day after day into their cities? What would Assad do if missiles were shot by Hizbalah from Lebanon into Damascus? Does anyone want to take a wild guess?
Now if you really want to save lives, start rallying against the Hamass and pressurize them to realize that they are not a fare fight for Israel, Put their Ego aside stop shooting missiles and agree to negotiate!!! That’s all it will take.
The fact that everyone is protesting against Israel is only motivation the Hamass to continue this ridiculous war. and by participating in this "Tail wind" for the Hamass is directly responsible for more civilian deaths.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 1447 GMT

I wonder if the i same injustices that have been bestowed upon the Palestinians by Israel for decades were bestowed upon us Americans would we just sit and smile and behave, or would we fight back and make noise and chaos however we could in order for the world to hear our voice and see plight

RG   January 12th, 2009 1447 GMT

Doesn’t any one see beyond their Moslem Ego and pride and instead off only rallying against Israel also try and save lives!!!!
Does anyone really expect any independent state to stand by while a bordering state fires rockets into civilian populations???? What would Saudi do if Jordan shot missiles day after day into their cities? What would Assad do if missiles were shot by Hizbalah from Lebanon into Damascus? Does anyone want to take a wild guess?
Now if you really want to save lives, start rallying against the Hamass and pressurize them to realize that they are not a fare fight for Israel, Put their Ego aside stop shooting missiles and agree to negotiate!!! That’s all it will take.
The fact that everyone is protesting against Israel is only motivation the Hamass to continue this ridiculous war. And everyone participating in this "Tail wind" is directly responsible for more civilian deaths.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1449 GMT

A song for Gaza

We will not go down (Song for Gaza)

Calli   January 12th, 2009 1449 GMT

Christian makes uninformed and incorrect assumptions about me just like he does about Hamas and Israel.

I guess being ignorant is an excuse for bearing false witness in his brand of "Christianity."

Yeah, Christ would be reeeeeaally proud of this one. I'll pray for his soul anyway.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 1451 GMT

This is my understanding of Hamas's message...and our response.

What Hamas have said in word and deed is:
We will kill you if you stay
And we will kill you if you leave.
We will kill you if you retaliate
And we will kill you if you don’t retaliate.
What can Israel do but to seek to end the terror
That threatens and is meant to threaten its very existence?

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 1452 GMT

CS History has shown that Hamas should not have weapons or they will fire them at Israel. Over 11,000 over an eight year period. Even other Arab nations wanted them to stop. So, I do think Irael and Gaza should be separated, not allowed to glance at each other. I do think the people of Gaza should be allowed to export stuff they produce, support themselves, but not import weapons because they will shoot at Israel again. This is what started all of this to begin with. It Hamas had not been shooting at Israel, the people of Gaza would not be hurt and the young adult soldiers would be home with their families.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 1453 GMT

Calli

I agree being ignorant is an excuse for bearing false witness in your brand of "Christianity"

Abbas Naqvi   January 12th, 2009 1453 GMT

Between this struggle for real estate, the only real gains are human casualties.

Evidently, there is no hope for the occupants of the occupied territory.

The only lesson to learn here is that the oppressor hates the victim more than the victim hates the oppressor.

Calli   January 12th, 2009 1454 GMT

If 911 wasn't a good day for you, then you don't support Hamas. You can be supportive of the Palestinian people, but you cannot support Hamas any mroe than you support al quaida, the taliban and other radical extemist muslims who want to take over the world and bring it under sharia. Hamas is just their cell and is charged with pushing israel into the sea and exterminating all Jews.

There's a difference between supporting the Palestiniana people and supporting hamas. I'm sure it's a big freakin riddle for u. Try to figure it out.

Calli   January 12th, 2009 1457 GMT

Oh, and by the way, 911 WAS a good day for Hamas. They were celebrating and dancing in the streets and passing out candy.

Guess some people missed that minor fact.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 1457 GMT

Doesn't Hamas have a charter?? What does it say? What are their words and goals? Is it for world peace?

CS   January 12th, 2009 1457 GMT

Deborah. I am of partially the same linneage(with respect to the Native American part) I agree that the few that are left (and I mean FEW) do alright on casino reservation and such, HOWEVER. After being nearly whiped out, the remainder of Full blooded Native Americans had alcohol pushed on them. They were force from the way of life known to their ancestors for centuries.
And I could not disagree more about your comment on African Americans. How easy do you think it is for an African American to find out of his/her origins? And just because a few have done well, look at the poverty level, and what is done to keep AA in this position. I'm not saying it's impossible to succeed, because look at our president elect. But the bar of success is set way higher for AA than for whites here. Like Chris Rock said. He lives in a community in Jersey. A few other BIG named AA stars live in the community, yet, his neigbor is a dentist. Not a heart surgeon, or brain surgeon, a dentist. That's the difference. We must not accept what is given us, just because. Just because things have gotten better, does'nt mean they're yet right.
And God has let the Israelites suffer, until they came back to him, then he restored them, and they sinned again, but were restred again, and so on. But I don't think that God wants us to say "well things are OK for me, and that should be enough"

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1459 GMT

Christian who is just,

I do respect you and see the light of your words.

May God -Allah- the almighty God bliss you

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 1501 GMT

exterminating all Jews with short range rockets....hehehe.... learn the history of the region maybe they you would be sympathetic for the Palestinians and less blindly supportive of Israel.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 1502 GMT

I really do not want to go into whether the Hamas supporters danced in the streets on 9/11.

But I would point out the following:

Every gesture of goodwill undertaken by Israel has been seized on by its enemies
as a sign of weakness. Every Israeli effort towards peace has led without exception to an increase in violence against Israel. The Oslo Peace Process led directly to the first Palestinian suicide attacks in Israel.

Taba: the most generous offer Israel ever made to the Palestinians, led directly to the most concerted set of terrorist attacks against any nation in modern history.

The Gaza Withdrawal, the most painful act Israel has ever had to undertake, led
within less than a year to 1000 Kassam rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets
including schoolchildren.

Nevertheless, please note, we must all pursue peace....we will not stop believing that we can leave our children a better world.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 1503 GMT

How far back do we go to find resentment and hate? Who should we point fingers at and blame? It does no good. Romans made slaves of Jews. Germany exterminated them. The Vikings killed many English. The English went after the Scots. Most learn to get over it and live peacefully eventually. I have one religion, but study many, Buddha and Native American writings in particular. To get a full view of God, it seems a good idea to me. Beyond all that, Hamas needs to stop firing at Israel and let the people of Gaza have peace. What are the charters of Hamas? Their writings? Anyone know? What is it, exactly, they want?

CS   January 12th, 2009 1503 GMT

GLeigh. I already heard you make this say about the dancung in the streets. This coverage was celebration of a soccer game win. But you don't expect a media retraction do you. When was the last time you saw one of those by the way?
And to respond to your comment about Hamas" charter. I don't care about superficial things like this. But the fact that you do shows how malleable your brain is. The TV has done a job on you. I'm sure the U.S. has plenty of "charters, pledges, and other such superficial sayings, but we still invaded Iraq, and killed over 300,00 civilians for no aparent reason. Iraq never attacked us in it's entire history. Nor did they ever have WMDs. But I'll bet you can justify that...Charter breach.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1506 GMT

GLeigh,

Are you looming still on a shade of gray .... can i see your color once you have decided ...

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 1507 GMT

I was once blind, because I do believe the Jews are God's chosen people,but that doesn't give them the right to do as they please. I opened a book and educated myself about that region and soon enough the ignorance that blinded me was gone, I pray that the rest of you "Christians" will do the same. And not be so easily swayed by the propagandized word of "terrorist"

Calli   January 12th, 2009 1509 GMT

Read the Hamas charter, genius. Just can't they exterminate Jews with short range rockets doesn't mean that it's not their goal. They say so very clearly in their charter. Read it. It says emphatically that there is not such thing as a peaceful solution. Their words, not mine.

When your done reading the Hamas charter, go to youtube and search "hamas TV." Watch some of their shows that they air on their network, expecially the children's shows.

I highly recommend the children's program about the Hamas child who goes to Washington, assassinating Bush and turning the White House into a mosque. He is a brave an heroic Hamas child.

If that doesn't float your boat, there's always good old-fashioned discourse by sane and rational Hamas clerics, where you can hear for calls of exterminiation of the Jews described as a "beautiful blessing." I'll make it easy for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsvqcp4aWF8

Continue to sympathize with the Palestinians like any decent human being would do, but don't delude yourself into thinking Hamas is your great pal OR theirs if you're actually a Christian.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 1512 GMT

CS – I never wrote anything about "dancing in the streets." You confused your posters. When people say something, I expect them to mean it. When they write it in a document, I take it even more seriously. This isn't an old document back hundreds of years that doesn't relate.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 1513 GMT

Guys,

I just want you all to read this prayer by the Chief Rabbi of Great Britain which he read at the rally in London in support of Israel which apparently was attaended by over 30,000 people, Hindus and Christians as well as Jews.

Prayer on behalf of all involved in this terrible conflict:

Listen to this, our prayer on their behalf.
Grant peace to all your children, Jew, Christian and Muslim alike.
Help us live together, respecting one another.
Help us cherish life.
Help us to use the powers You gave us, to heal, to mend, to build.
We ask of You, Almighty God, just one thing:
You who make peace in high places,
Help us make peace down here on earth.

Amen to that!

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 1514 GMT

I'm not trying to take sides. For those whose goal is peace for the people of Israel and Gaza, I'm trying to figure out how that might be accomplished so the dying might stop. For some, peace is not the goal. Wiping Israel off the map is the goal. That does cause a problem in the peace process.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 1514 GMT

Yes when people say something I expect they mean it to and when they write it in a document, i take it even more seriously. Just like the WMDs in Iraq right.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1514 GMT

Calli. You can't blame Al Qaida for not wanting the U.S. for being in it's country. They did'nt even exist until after we invaded their country. If some other country invaded yours, would you ban together, and fight for your family, your home, and your right to exist, or would you just do everything the occupying force said? By the way, was'nt it the Taliban that perpetrated 9/11? Were not the attackers of Saudi origin? (15/19 of them) Chase Bin Laden, yes. Exterminate every muslim you see. NO!

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 1518 GMT

Saddam was a cruel dictator. Hopefully the government of Iraq is creating something new, kinder. I don't know what is right and wrong in all of that mess, but I do know they no longer have a cruel dictator. There are a thousand wars we could debate. I'm worried about the citizens of Gaza and Israel. In Israel there are concrete arches over the schools so if a Hamas missile hits one, the children might survive. Peace for all would be good.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 1518 GMT

CS

Are you suggesting that Israel wants to exterminate every Muslim???

CS   January 12th, 2009 1518 GMT

Harvey. That was very much needed. Thank you for posting it. I just wish, that more religious leaders would remain impartial, and not add any bias to their messages. Here in the states, church leaders do everything they can to manipulate peoples minds to justify bad behavior.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1520 GMT

harvey,

Can you have a better Idea other than justifying the killing , today 4100 wounded and over 800 killed , 40% of them are children and women s that's more than 1900 civilians , the 61 Arab doctors arrived last night and will recount the dead's and the wounded and will release the new figures.

Some time the justification will become unmoral and a crime on on itself, don't sell your soul to your IDF lies.

mohammad   January 12th, 2009 1520 GMT

Damian
if israel stop dealing with arabs like thy are non humans ..there well be no violance ...
if israel stop occupy the arab lands there well be no violance .
if israel let the refugees come back according to the dissisions of the UN there well be no violance .

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 1521 GMT

see the problem all stems from the fact that when you don't understand something you vilify it. Muslims are not bad people as someone said earlier. their is good and bad in every culture,but when you want to treat someone like they don't exist or matter because you have no interest in knowing who they are or what they stand for and have you own perceived thoughts about them then you have made a mistake. America and Israel are both guilty of that and has done a great job of brain washing their people so that the majority has no idea what Islam or for that matter what any other religion is about

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 1523 GMT

Perhaps even if Hamas continues firing on Israel and continues hiding those weapons among the populated areas of their country, the Israeli soldiers should leave. Hopefully their hearts are kinder. I know Hamas rockets kill Israeli people, but I don't know if Hamas will ever stop.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 1525 GMT

RG,

I posted this for the "8 years" slogan ....

Where were the people including you for the last 60 years, when Palestinians were left without home and suffering under a very sever condition just because they want a place under the sun.

The only exit, is to end the “occupation” and recognize the Palestinians right to exist as they have recognized your right to exist.

The Palestinians wanted to renew the ceasefire in return of lifting of the blockade which was enforced for 3 years, why Israel kept the mass punishment regime and caged the Gazans and when Israel break the ceasefire we never hear of any demonstration.

The justification of killing of so much people will never counter an image of a small child crying Mama , Mama .

Enough bloodshed and enough justification of the killing of people in whatever name.

Here is a link CNN Confirms Israel Broke Ceasefire First

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

Why only god knows ….

harvey   January 12th, 2009 1529 GMT

CS

I should say that the Chief rabbi of Great Britain is not impartial. He was addressing a rally in support of Israel.

Just because we are forced to defend ourselves it does not mean that we must lose our humanity.

Friends, let me tell you what is wrong with terror. It is not just that it murders the innocent: the young, the old, the defenceless, the uninvolved. It is that it murders innocence itself. It turns virtue into weakness, decency into vulnerability.

This is all so terribly sad and needless. By some divine practical joke God has decreed that the descendants of Abraham's son's, Ishmael and Isaac are to be neighbours. As one of the descendants of Isaac, I'm just waiting for the folks next door and praying that they will become neighbourly and stop trying to kill my children and worse forcing my children to turn into killers of their children.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1529 GMT

Harvey. I'm was talking briefly about the U.S., but I do believe that the Israeli government (for the most part) wants to opress islamic nations at all costs. Even if it means extermination, yes. Please understand that I do not think in absolute terms. And I do believe that the leaders of men will be the end of men. Idon't believe that the people of ANY nation are responsible for it's fate. Example..if it were up to me, we would have never been to Iraq the second time. But I can bet that some poor Iraqi child, who has lost both parents at the hands of a U.S. bomb or bullet, still hates all Americans. And...can you blame him? If you want to create an army of determined adversaries, do what the U.S. and Israel do. Opress them a while. I guarantee you, if many of us on this site right now were face with losing our loved ones, our homes, and our land...if we saw some of the terrible things of war..such as possibly a child of ours hurt, because of some political nonsense....Harbey..please beleive that this would make a universal soldier out of us. Ready to kill as many of the enemy as we could. How would you feel if these terrible things were visited upon you if they (God forbid) already have not. If you have children, and or/wife/husband...it's hard to believe that people could lose them to this type of opression, and not want absolute..cold served revenge.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 1530 GMT

Hunk – the goal is to find peace for everyone, hopefully. Neither side is perfect. I agree. World leaders should have stepped in long ago, not Jewish, not Arab, and separated Israel and Gaza and had a two state solution. That was turned down. Why that was turned down depends on who you listen to and how far back you go, as in most things.

mohammad   January 12th, 2009 1532 GMT

GLeigh
hamas rokets killed only 14 ppl during 8 years .....
with all respict 4 the humans live but during the 8 years the IDF killed almost 1700 non fighters only in gaza ..
..that is before this problem .
israel did not stop targiting the ppl in palastinian earias even during the ceas fire .

sarah   January 12th, 2009 1533 GMT

I think hamas and any other "organization" could be stopped if it was given room to breath.
Analysis of the last years war has pretty much been agreed upon that they are more numerous now than before. Why? another poster put it well about war, generally people lose what clarity they would normally have, from soldiers to civilians. From an outside view alot of Arabs feel attacked for being arab. Doesn't matter what religion they are it's still a perceived threat. also as another put it....christian-. The west has been great at the prapaganda whether intentional or not that all arabs are muslims and there for a potential threat.
If there were more westerners involved in these talks that the Arab leaders, from clerics to philosophers to doctors on up, i think better communication and understanding would create a temperance or buffer if you will. Understanding does not mean acceptance or being a push over.

ben   January 12th, 2009 1534 GMT

OK GUYS MOVE TO THE NEXT TOPIC MR. PEANUT HEAD BUSH IS SAYING COUNTRIES STOP SENDING WEAPONS TO GAZA, YOU ARE MAKING ANOTHER HOLOCAST ON THE CHOSEN PEOPLE I WORSHIP

HUNK,

I AM READY FOR THE "GADIAH" OR "CAUSE" LETS START IN THE NEXT TOPIC PAGE

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 1535 GMT

People is Gaza and people in Israel are always battling in the streets. Sending off rockets into civilian areas is different, not great. I know the Israeli people are not innocent. Neither are the ones in Gaza. Separate them. Hunt for solutions to the problems. Make neutral world leaders monitor the peace and keep them separate.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 1536 GMT

sarah is clearly a thinker... keep the words of wisdom coming

sarah   January 12th, 2009 1537 GMT

to continue,

It's called living up to or living down to expectations.
Russia is Belligerent.

So they are.

N. K causes problems for S.K. So it does.

America, is the protector of the world....So it is.

America is the terrorist creator of the world....so it is.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 1541 GMT

CS the sceanario you paint is a realistic one I admit. Sadly it is the scenario that we in Israel live with.

All of us have to go into the army here. Israel is such a tiny country that sadly all of us have come into contact with terror and victims of terror and have lost loved ones.

Yet we must not lose our humanity and hope. Our only way forward is to find a peaceful solution and move forward. Our only way forward is to believe in the prayer that I posted written by the Chief rabbi of Great Britain.

We may fight now, but we fight NOT to eliminate another people. We fight because at this moment in time we have no choice.

Yet even as we fight we can pray that all of us (and our kids) will not succumb to the blood lust and hate....

Rabin shook the hand of Arafat. Begin shook the hand of Sadat. Hussein made peace. If you are a realist living here in Israel you have to believe in miracles!!!!Me and the vast majority of Israelis are praying that our boys come home safe and that all the kids on both sides are soon living without fear of rockets and bombs.

Categorically, we do not wish to exterminate Moslems.

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1542 GMT

Calli,
These Muslim extremists know all the excuses in the book. Everything is good and right as long it is committed in the name of Islam, even killing their own brothers and sisters. They preach peace and when you accept it, they stab you in the back. Very old Arab custom! They band together like thieves in the night, they make evil plans and laugh at each others lame jokes. They insult Christians and Jews. They talk loud and make empty boasts which they actually believe. They think that Allah will protect them. Be careful of the Muslim extremists, they are the worlds worst. But most of all, Hamas could have stopped the killing of the women and children two weeks ago. All they had to do was stop their pathetic rockets. Their entire beings are put together of lies.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1546 GMT

Harvey. I am not Islamic or Jewish. But I can see opression for what it is. I WILL NOT close my eyes to how we (the world) got here. Israel began the opression in 1948 with the help of the U.N, which broke it's own charters and rules to create the nation now known as Israel. Israel has stoped Palestine from getting food, medical equipment, and water, and petrol. This was during the cease fire. A neutral body (one with an actual pair of stones) needs to step in when things like this are done.
With response to what you said about Palestinian s stopping trying to kill your children. I wish no ill will to uninvolved parties...especially children..of ANY race/religion. Even if they are taught to hate Palestinians. But a level of fairness needs to be upheld. The same treatment for everyone. If Israel breaks a cease fire (which they did, the media just refuses to give sufficient coverage of these events which occurred in July and November of 08) they should be exposed, and punished. Just like, if Palestine does this...well, we all know they will be held to task even if they fart.
And another thing. Something needs to be done to uphold these cease fires/treaties in the event that a crazy individual (from either side) decides to start something. Wars should not be started because a small group of idiots do something crazy. You're trying to tell me that the SEALs, and covert operations could not slowly but surely take out groups like the Taliban, without haveg to carpet bomb towns and cities, and wage full scale war? I don't believe it. Just like I don't believe everthing that FOX tells me. Fox comes on, and tells people that muslims hate us because we're free, and damn if idiots don't believe it. I could'nt be that we invade their countries for no damn reason at all.

hindu indian   January 12th, 2009 1549 GMT

all that israel asks for is for hamas to stop sending rockets into israel.once they agree i am sure all this attack by the israeli army will stop.

sarah   January 12th, 2009 1549 GMT

CS,

I agree. And that is where the ARAB league should come in. They would be the ones to get this region together and start creating homogeneity. instead as if they are on separate continents.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 1554 GMT

great comment CS

sarah   January 12th, 2009 1557 GMT

but then now that I think on it. I think i just had a Sci-Fi experience. What would happen if there was Asia, New Europe(eu), Old europe, ME, North and south America(there is talk about the NAU)? would that then create a situation of battle for supremacy?

sarah   January 12th, 2009 1600 GMT

sorry, I got off track for a moment there.

I was happy to see/read this morning on US media a report on what types of weapons the Israelis are using, and how it's creating so many civilian casualties. mainly a report on the WP.

Eman   January 12th, 2009 1603 GMT

Is the people of Isreal heart so black? How can they sit back and allow this to happen? You suffered the Holucast and yet you are doing the same to the palestinian. I dont care if your Jewish, Muslim, Christian, or any other religion. All i want to know How can you sit back and see innocent children dying!!!! Jews wanted everyone to symphatize with them because of the Holucast....well its ashame your doing the same to innocent people of Palestine. Try living their life and you will understand their suffering. Holucast survivors were misplaced well the same with palestinian. I hate what israel is doing to Palestinian people and I will never symphatize with the Jews for what happen during the Holucast because they are no different than Hitler. Brothers and sisters will remember this day and revenge thier loved ones. Noone is to blame when this happens but Isreal

harvey   January 12th, 2009 1605 GMT

CS

I really don't want to get into this...but

1. Israel accepted partition in "48 the Arab States did not.
2. Egypt is a Moslem country. There is a border right there with Gaza. Why hasn't the oil wealth of the Arab nations flowed in through theat portal over the years. Why not have all the supplies needed come flooding through? Why has the arab world not helped its bretheren?
3. I really resent you telling me that we teach our children to hate the Palestinians. The vast majority of us do not. If our dream of peace is to flourish the contrary must occur.
4. I would be more than happy for an independent peace keeping force to go in. Unnaceptable to Egypt and Hamas.As for braeking of cease fire I am not sure that you can be 100% certain that it is us?
5. This ain't some Bruce Willis, Chuck Norris movie where you can send in the dirty dozen or kosher kilos to take out the bad guys.....
6. As for media bias, it seems that our side and the other side are consistently unhappy with the way the facts and our arguments are being presented.
Finally as I have consistently said. Scratch at the old scabs of history for the wrongs or the rights of who should be here. Fact is we are both here now and somehow there must be a way we can go forward together peacefully. As far as I see it majority of us Israelis would be well in favor.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 1607 GMT

Jonas.

your posts shows your Ignorance and hate towards Muslims I am sure you never met one you never read one book about Islam.
Is it a surprise that you are so hateful toward Muslims it is people like you who create Misery and Genocide in this world..I am sure you are teaching your children this hate.I am sure your house is full of hate.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 1612 GMT

Guys,

Take care have to run....
shalom Y'all.
CS we'll get back to debate later. meanwhile take care!

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 1612 GMT

uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA

CS   January 12th, 2009 1612 GMT

Well, I have to go. To Harvey: It was nice talking to you. We seem to have understood each others plight. I wish there was more of this kind of dialect in here, and less hateful ignorant misinformed talk. But, one day at a time.

To Sarah, Christian Who Is Just, Ben, Mohammed, and Hunk.
It's nice to have dialect with some people who want to fight the opression of the the Palestinian people. I'll talk to you again soon.

In closing for now..I would like to remind everyone that Bill Clinton had
both sides ready to sign the treaty. Unfortunately, he was the outgoing president, and the incoming...well, you know him. But we were close.
Close to a juncture inhistory where we can have Muslims, and Jews who live in peace, and are able to prosper, and not worry about their childrens future. I used to think that the sons and daughters of Isaac and Ismael would hate eachother forever. This is even stated in the Bible, to a degree. But sometimes I wonder if God tests us this way, in order to see if we will love eachother the way that kin should. As both religions spawned from the same father, Abraham. Beacuse it was written that the brothers would be set against each other, does it mean that we don't have the power...the free will to stop that? And more importantly..just because it was written, is this what the God of the world wants?

Talk to you soon.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 1617 GMT

in agreement with CS

Chris Pavano   January 12th, 2009 1621 GMT

If Hammas waterboards Isreali soilders they took prisoners to find out something that might save hundreds of lives of their own people is that torture or is only legal when Isreal and America do it

sarah   January 12th, 2009 1621 GMT

Bye.

sarah   January 12th, 2009 1624 GMT

January 12th, 2009 1621 GMT

If Hammas waterboards Isreali soilders they took prisoners to find out something that might save hundreds of lives of their own people is that torture or is only legal when Isreal and America do it
---------------------------
That's a horrible question but in some way spot on.
Of course I don't know what type of crime it would be as Hamas, is not officially a gov't. or is it? Is it a terrorist group or isn't?

(slap forehead) I'm confused

Chris Pavano   January 12th, 2009 1631 GMT

If Hammas stops firing rockets does the Palestinian people go free
or is it back to jail.
Isreal is just like America we rounded up the Indians and held them until they died off. Isreal did the same thing taking land that belongs to someone else.Only proplem the Palestinians wont die off it's just the opposit they are like rabbitts plus China is siding with Hammas what know Isreal is running out of time in fact I think it's to late for them.
America supported Serbia until the Germans armed Croatia and we can't be on the looing side will we drop Isreal the same way after all Serbia and Isreal have close ties.Both are war criminals and both should be treated as in that maner

sarah   January 12th, 2009 1631 GMT

The worst thing about this.

IF HAMAS is a terrorist org, on scale of Al Qaida/taliban etc....then wtf is the west doing? Why are they only in Afghan and Iraq? Why has there been no discussion of going into the area to eradicate them?..

oh how the political winds turn.

I wouldn't be suprized if Israel is the US scapegoat in this. So, while i disagree with Zionist on principal....who is worse, the Zionists or Hamas. see Zionists are NOT Jews for the most part. Just as could be said about Hamas not being muslim.

So who is playing whom?

sarah   January 12th, 2009 1634 GMT

DID i just open a can of worms?

Angry Nubian   January 12th, 2009 1640 GMT

Deborah Al-Qanai,

Good points but do not forget that history is always written by the winners.

Taiking about "black Americans" the real and true history of the black man will never be told until we see the "true bible" and not the King James edition or that used bty the MORMONS.

The British still has a price to pay for their crimes of slavery. Ask how many blacks, young and women in particular were thrown over board for sharks when the ships were too full to carry on . The Atlantic ocean is full of the ghosts of these innocent slaves.

Again, though they were not the framers, America has a price to pay but the British has a bigger price including others even some Arab and yes African countries still have a big price to pay for these ungodly deeds.

Also a British documentary producer whose name escapes me Attenborough????once said regarding Egypt, Ethiopia, Italy and Greece and the black or African race and about their business savvy, their talents in trading, education and medicine and the working relationships they forged with the Greeks, Italians and others.

He said "Africans were held in high esteem and regards and everything was fine and working until the British came" You can check this out if you so choose

Look, the British were the framers of racism and they take it every where they go. The British were bullies and they were the ones who forced America into the slave trade.

They made an ultimatum to America "you do it or else" because of the power of the British.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1641 GMT

Ok. I was juuust about to leave, but let's clear some things up.
1. Why would Palestine and "Arab states " accept the removal of themselves from their own land, to which they have owned for the previous 1200 tyears?

2. You have proven your racist nature. Just because Egypt and Palestine share a boarder does not mean it is the shares the same culture/ideals. The U.S. shares a boarder with Mexico, but I assure you..two different places.

3. If the "vast" civilian population of Israel wanted peace, why were settlement communities being built on Palestinian land as of late. It's bad enough they were forced to give their best, most recourceful land away in 1948, now you have to encroach even more?
4. Nobody's talkin about Hollywood or none of that other garbage you're talking about. But you show your naivetay by thinking that the only way to resolve a conflict is through all out war. With the technological advances they have these days, you're telling me that they can't find Bin Laden without sending all forces...including the National guard? They have already had Bin Laden in their sights, but let him escape anyway. But that's another story.

5.If you google Haaretz, and who broke cease fire first, you'll see that even an israeli media source has broken the news that Israel has broken the ceas fire first, which caused a Palestinian response, then Palestine went back to the orders of the cease fire, only for CNN's Rick Sanchez to expose the second incursion into Palestine in November of 08' That aside from the blockades. But as I said..insufficient media coverage.

6. I pray that the majority of Israel can convince it's leaders to treat Palestine with respect, then maybe there will be peace. If they choose not, can you blame Palestine for retaliating? As I stated earlier..The every day people are not responsible for the decisions of it's leadership.

Glenn   January 12th, 2009 1655 GMT

I have been reading the posts here for the last 2 hours, and I need to voice out my thoughts as well.

I have lived in the Middle East (Dubai for that matter), and this war has to stop. Hamas needs to stop firing useless rockets to Israel, but at the same time, Israel needs to release the blockade on Gaza, and give 100% ownership of Gaza to Palestine.

I have seen a lot of comments earlier stating that Israel gave Gaza to Palestine 2 years ago, but that is not the absolute truth. The absolute truth is that Gaza belonged to Palestine in the first place, but up to now Israel has controled the borders and air space, making Gaza 1 huge prison. For example, going to the West Bank from Gaza requires permits from the Israeli Gov't which takes hours (this was before this Dec-Jan conflict started).

The facts are as follows:

Shelter – The entire civilian population in the Gaza strip remains vulnerable, with no safe haven, no bomb shelters, and with closed borders making it one of the rare conflicts where "civilians have no place to flee".

Fuel and Electricity – Imagine our situation where we would have daily blackouts, and it escalates into an issue where we were required to buy home generators powered by petrol. In Gaza, there is only one power plant, and it is down. Backup generators do not work because there are no fuel going inside Gaza. As of Jan 4, they have experienced 24 hours blackouts, causing 90% of the telephone networks to go down, and have no means to heat or cook because of lack of fuel. As of Jan 7, most of the civilians in Gaza continues to live without electricity.

Water – Due to Israeli blockades, there has been a shortage of chlorine for water treatment, increasing the risk of water diseases. Include also the destruction of water wells leaving tens of thousands of people without water. Sewerage pipelines were also damaged, causing sewer waters to pour into the streets. 70% of the 1.5 million people in Gaza have no access to drinking water.

Health – Weakened by the eighteen-month Blockade of the Gaza Strip, as of 31 December the central drug store reported that 105 drugs and 255 medical supplies of the essential drug and supplies list are still unavailable, and approximately 20 percent of the ambulances were grounded due to lack of spare parts.

Journalists – Journalists have been prohibited by Israel to enter Gaza to report, which is not acceptable. "It's not being monitored, because it's not being reported, then almost inevitably the loss of lives, the abuse of people's human rights, is going to be greater than it would be if it was being properly reported in a way that we would usually expect."

2008 is supposedly a year of disappointments, with the financial crisis affecting all life around the world. 2009 should not be remembered as the Gaza-Israel conflict. The world leaders should pressure for the cease-fire as soon as possible, and allow aid workers to reach the needy.

And lastly, I am not pro-Hamas nor pro-Israel. I am against Hamas for the ideology that they convey, but I am also against Israel for the attack on Gaza. 900 dead people does not make the operation succesful; it makes it a mistake. What have we learned from the past wars? I am pro-peace, and religion has nothing to do with it.

Den   January 12th, 2009 1657 GMT

> the majority of Israel can convince it’s leaders to treat Palestine with respect, then maybe there will be peace.

Like in 2005 after withdrawal?

> can you blame Palestine for retaliating?

In my eyes, firing Quassams and Grads is (a) stupid and (b) asking for trouble. As long as that happens, I can't support Gaza side, regardless or any kind of embargo from Israel.

Daren   January 12th, 2009 1701 GMT

Whatever it is, be it the jews or the muslims claiming one another is the enemy.

Do the rest of the world a favour.

You people just keep those problems to your side of the world.

racasel   January 12th, 2009 1710 GMT

Video of an analysis of a middle eastern woman about the muslims and why they will never accept anybody unless they are muslims too.

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak

racasel   January 12th, 2009 1714 GMT

When the jews are eliminated, who will the muslims take on next? the budhist? catholics? Hindi?, protestants?, mormons? ????

bilal TEXAS   January 12th, 2009 1717 GMT

answers can be found in the greatest documentary of all times
"OCCUPATION 101" look for it on google and spend a few minutes watching it that way you can know the truth for yourselves.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 1726 GMT

1. India and Pakistan accepted partition. So precedent exists in the world.
2. Why am I racist by thinking that Egypt a moslem country has a duty of care to its moslem neighbour? Egypt as an Arb nation has far more in common with Gaza than usJews. Fine if you want to blame the Israelis for the "siege" conveniently ignoring the only reason why access into our country became restricted was because of suicide bombings. But if you only blame Israel for the siege and you don't bame Egypt conrolling the Arab gateway, then with respaet it is you who is being racist.
3. We showed how willing we were to look for peace by dismantling our settlements.

Every gesture of goodwill undertaken by Israel has been seized on by its enemies
as a sign of weakness. Every Israeli effort towards peace has led without exception to an increase in violence against Israel. The Oslo Peace Process led directly to the first Palestinian suicide attacks in Israel.

Taba: the most generous offer Israel ever made to the Palestinians, led directly to the most concerted set of terrorist attacks against any nation in modern history.

The Gaza Withdrawal, the most painful act Israel has ever had to undertake, led
within less than a year to 1000 Kassam rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets
including schoolchildren.

We do not want more territory.We give it up for the promise of peace. We just need a partner.

5. With respect to haaretz, I view them the same way you view Fox.
7.With regard to war....we have put up with the rockets for 8 years.

What Hamas have said in word and deed is:
We will kill you if you stay
And we will kill you if you leave.
We will kill you if you retaliate
And we will kill you if you don’t retaliate.
What can Israel do but to seek to end the terror
That threatens and is meant to threaten its very existence?

We have no choice but to fight. All very well for you to judge but you don't live in Sderot.
8. I repeat the prayer that the Chief Rabbi of Great Britain made yesterday which I am fully in agreement with:

Listen to this, our prayer on their behalf.
Grant peace to all your children, Jew, Christian and Muslim alike.
Help us live together, respecting one another.
Help us cherish life.
Help us to use the powers You gave us, to heal, to mend, to build.
We ask of You, Almighty God, just one thing:
You who make peace in high places,
Help us make peace down here on earth.

Amen to that!

CS   January 12th, 2009 1726 GMT

racist...i mean racasel, if you pick up a book every once in a while you'll see that Jews and Muslims lived together in Palestine prior to the forcefull takeover in 1948. Prior to 1948, in the first part of the century, there were about 1million Muslims there, and 100 thousand Jews. These numbers were so, because this was in fact the land of Palestine, but they still allowed Jews to settle there, and relative peace insued until 1948 when the U.N. decided to declare Palestine the new Israel. If it were Germany who perpetrated the events of the Holocaust, then why is not Israel in East Germany somewhere? It would seem only fair to give the land of those who committed the crime to the Jews? Why bother the Palestinians? Can you answer that. Don't come back with some off the wall generalization...just answer that question.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1734 GMT

Now Harvey. Just when I started to think you were okay, your true side comes out. But I still have faith. I will not be like some, who say that all Jews are bad. Just because you don't want to recognize your countries bad behavior, does not mean that other Jews will overlook it.
For example: If you go to http://www.ifamericansknew.com and look under the history dropdown, you will see the history of this conflict.
And I am happy to say that it was in fact, written by an Jewish professor. And he has my respect, because it's hard to admitt wrongdoin if your a part of it.

Tony Larue   January 12th, 2009 1737 GMT

Darren

Shame on you! The Middle East problems are our problems I want you to know. How cannot it not be our problem when we see Gazans including innocent children, and the elderly being blown to bits by bombs and rockets?

It is evil to have human beings in such a small place then tell them to go somewhere because they are in the cross fire knowning full well that they are going to be killed. Where do they have to go???????

How can we sit by when people cannot go about their daily lives in Israel because of rockets?

Change governments get fresh reasonable non-warring leaders who can have meaningful dialogue faces and stop the recycling of leaders whose only goal is to put a good face on for an election.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 1741 GMT

CS

We can go back and forth playing ping pong on who has the rightful claim to the land.We can both produce valid arguments and both of us have countless times, never accepted by the other party...so fruitless to even go there.

Thats not the issue now.
The issue now is two peoples are here and how are we going to live together and break the cycle of violence?

Lets stop the blame game...as to who did what to who and what should have been done and its all someone else's fault.

The future is what we should concentrate on....

spiraling down   January 12th, 2009 1752 GMT

All the whining and crying will not change the fact that both sides have made zero progress in the cease fire talks. All Israel has to do is stand down. All Hamas (the speaking government for Gaza) has to do is agree to stop firing rockets into Israel.
Since neither is willing to do something that requires common sense more Palestinians will die.
Since the rest of the Arab world, the Governments of Islamic Republics, have done nothing tangible for Gaza, I can only assume that they have had enough of the tribulations in Gaza and moved on with their lives.
Farewell Gaza, good riddance.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 1758 GMT

Hi Harvey! Good to see your beautiful voice of reason shining through again! I love the beautiful prayer you posted above and believe it expresses the wishes of many Christians and Jews around the world. I just have a quick sec before I have to run but wanted you to know ...

I was in Atlanta yesterday and went to the Support Israel rally in front of the CNN headquarters. There were thousands of pro-Israel supporters there - it far outnumbered the pro-Hamas demonstration on the other side of the street. The Support Israel side was a massive sea of people - I couldn't even work myself from one end of the crowd to the other, there were so many people. CNN doesn't seem to have noticed this huge ralley taking place at its front door, but please know Israel definitely has the support of the American people in eradicating radical Islamic terrorists who refuse to let the people of Israel live in peace.

May we ALL put our heads on our pillows tonight knowing we and our children are safe from those who wish to destroy us, regardless of their nationality and regardless of their religion! Peace for Israel! Peace for the Palestinian people! Peace for all! Have a great day! Bye!

harvey   January 12th, 2009 1758 GMT

Sorry guys,

Really have to run now....

CS Loke you I almost feel we got somwhere tonight.

Everbody take care!

harvey   January 12th, 2009 1804 GMT

Hi Nona...

Take care....Just wanted to say a personal hi and goodbye.
Great that you went to the rally. Us here in Israel really appreciate the support.

Will leave CS and the gang to you.

Thank you and God bless!

Isreal Lover   January 12th, 2009 1823 GMT

I am not Jewish or Christian and I'm not a fan of any other organized religious group in the world. If that means I am going to burn in hell when I die, (if the heaven/hell concept exists in every religion?), I'm taking my chances because I've survived this long without religion. I support Isreal in its right to exist as a state and its right to self-defence.
Also, I support Isreal because I know for certain that it is the only true ally that the U.S./Canada has amongst the ME countries, Iran, Syria and North Korea. I embrace the Jewish people simply because I am 100% certain that Isreal will not attack the U.S. or Canada and I know that a Jewish terrorist will not try to blow up me or my country. I have never been afraid of anyone Jewish or anything Isreali but I am deeply offended and disturbed by the militant Islamists and the extreme hate shown by them in their demonstrations against Isreal around the world.

The picture in Gaza is not pretty but it is a war zone and I think it is terrible that so many lives are being lost because of the Hamas terrorists. Shifa Hospital is being used by them as a base to operate out of and they even have an underground bunker there. It is well documented that Hamas is stealing aid and killing Palestinians who are not supportive of them. Isreal refuses to bomb this hospital because the civilians in there obviously but in a war zone every target is fair game. No other country in the world would have used the restraint and caution that Isreal has shown to date.

When are the Hamas leaders going to come out of hiding and agree to a cease fire? They are using the Palestinian civilians as pawns for their own agenda in this fight and the other Arab states have a lot to answer for also, especially Egypt and Syria for aiding Hamas to smuggle in their arms for the last 8 years. In fact, over the last 60 years the other Arab states seem to have done very little to help the Palestinians and continue to keep them in refugee camps and use them for cheap labour (eg. Jordan) and impose all sorts of restrictions on them. Isreal is not the only guilty party in this conflict.

racasel   January 12th, 2009 1844 GMT

Watch this video and understand the muslims. with english sub-title.

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak

Debs   January 12th, 2009 1904 GMT

Dan, Beny, Solomon,

Where are you guys??

I cant comment anymore as there is no one on hear making any sensible comments. Too much propoganda and hate.

Too many people commenting and dont really know what is really going on.

Ive tried a couple of times to put my to cents worth in............

Solomon, still waiting for my reply......

brodeur786   January 12th, 2009 1922 GMT

The only way to truly understand what is happening in Gaza is to go there. Go with a tour guide and they will show exactly which parts of Israel were Palestine 50 years ago. The Israeli government allowed and directed their forces to tear down the houses of innocent Palestinian families, and after this they built their own settlements.

Hamas has, and always will try and get back that land, that their parents and grandparents were forced out of, and often killed for. The two sides have been going at it for a while, and Israel is just using Hamas as an excuse for ethnic cleansing.

Some Zionists believe that Masjid Al-Aqsa stands on the land which is where the Temple of Solomon once stood. Read the following instances and you'll hopefully understand that Israel is at fault here.

http://tagtag.com/aqsa/attacks_on_masjid...

Stop watching CNN and all of the ******** articles online. If you really want to know what's going on, and you truly care, go there and see what's happening first-hand.

Israel is NOT acting in self-defense, they have been the offender for the better part of 6 decades. Nobody has noticed because in the bigger scheme of things they have been subtle and haved moved slowly........at times they accelerated whatever it is that they attempt to accomplish.....but rather patiently.......until now.

John   January 12th, 2009 1930 GMT

War is hell. Hamas needs to quick shooting rockets and recognizes Israel's right to exist. Hamas's credo is to destroy Israel. How do you have peace with Hamas on your border. One can argue about proportionality, but this is mainly Hamas's doing. The Palestinians will never have peace with Israel with Hamas in control

Isreal Lover   January 12th, 2009 1932 GMT

Racasel,
Good video ... I have seen it before but can't remember the lady's name. I tend to agree with her, although I don't really know about the passages of the Koran she is talking about. Interesting, the older guy at the end wouldn't debate further with her?

Brian   January 12th, 2009 1945 GMT

if the arabs would put down the gunds there would be peace, if israel would put the guns down there would be no israel. The arabs have over 99% of the mid east land almost 100% of the mideast oil and petro dollars and they still are not happy.
The arabs have enough land and money to settle everyone very nicely if they choose. Why dont they try tht and see what would happen?
give peace a chance, use the peto mega dollars to give the poor arabs a future and hope. The rich arabs kindoms have enought moeny and land to do this is they choose

give peace a chance

racasel   January 12th, 2009 1959 GMT

Israel lover
I was surprised as well that it came from aljazeera. I think the name of the lady is shown at the start of the video.

Meir, Holon, Israel   January 12th, 2009 2001 GMT

To all of you how call us nazi's etc, etc.

Where are you when since 1948 the Islam world tries to destroy us and to create a second hollocaust.

The UN charter clearly states that all nation shall live in peace and unafraid of agression, Why don't you require the UN to expell Iran, who clearly calls for the destruction of Israel and its people. A UN in which 30% of all countries are principally against the existence of Israel.

You were at home, making plans for your next vacation.

Let me tel you: Our army is the most humane in the world, we even distributed thousands of leaflets before bombing civilian areas. Dit your army do that in Irak, Afganistan. Look at what the Russians did in Grozny, or Nato in ex-Jugoslavie. I don't remember one single example in which Allied forces in WW II cared about civilians
We let humanitarian aid enter, knowing that Hamas would use these hours to setup rockets to be launched into Israel, not caring where they shall fall, they even prefer civilian targets. In all those accidents thousends and thousends died.

You were at home, making plans for your next vacation.

We do not occupy a single square meter of Arab soil, or you should maybe also return Washington, DC to its (in your eyes) legal owners, the indian tribe who lived there before you came there to settle and create your great country, which I respect sincerely for the democracy and freedom it brought to the world.

We are willing to give up some of these areas in order to live in peace with our Arab neighbors, that is why we left Gaza in 2005. Leaving behind a working infrastructure (mainly agriculture) so that they might have a running start. In one week they destroyed all that and starting a new infrastructure: Manufacturing rokets to kill Israeli's.

You were at home, making plans for your next vacation.

So when you spout your anti-Israeli venom, we Israeli's don't care. After 2000 years of being led like sheep to Christian and Muslim slaugtherhouses we have taken up arms again to defend ourselves.
That in these conflicts we succeed much more in "hurting" them, they can blame only themselves.
A Mormon historicus, Max I. Dimont wrote in his book: "Jews, God and history" said: It is not a wonder that the Romans defeated the Jewish revolt but is is a wonder that the Jews nearly defeated the Roman Empire. So we have turned back to the sword, not because we like it, but we have learned tthe hard way hat only by defending ourselves we can survive. We learned this from you, Christians, Muslims, etc. This is the way of this world. I did not create it, I don't like it, but so be it.
Where were you when we Jews were taught this by the "Goyim"???

You were at home, making plans for your next vacation.

Sick with empathy   January 12th, 2009 2009 GMT

so many women and children dead,
so many non hamas civilians dead,
soon Israel will have Gaza covered in the blood of innocents

Hamas is wrong for shooting rockets, They should be held responsible. But does that justify the annihilation of a whole society of people who do not have any say so in what their government does. Even though they were elected, We as Americans have elected leaders that did not act according to our wishes as a country. Just as we have no say so in what our government does they could not have known that this was the direction their government was headed.
Israel is killing everyone, not just those who threaten them. I believe in protecting innocent people, but not at the price of killing thousands of innocents for a few guilty. Especially when the ratio of Israelis dead to Gazan's dead is grossly different.
The people in Gaza now are blocked in from all sides awaiting death with their families in their arms.
Doesn't Israel remember this similarity in their own history, the Nazi's did the same to them forcing them to watch their families die for no reason other than political policies and religious difference. Where is the compassion, where is the empathy. Children are heard crying in the streets. Mothers clutch their dead children in their arms waiting to be next. Hamas will not stop until everyone in Gaza is dead, neither will Israel. There is no difference between them now. Except to Israel the protection an innocent citizen of Israel is more important than protecting and an innocent citizen of Gaza. Why is that? What makes a citizen of Gaza worth less? Is it Religion?
Everyone in Gaza is dying slowly of hunger, injuries, lack of health care, No electricity, and casualties of war. It would be more merciful to drop an atomic bomb and spare them the suffrage of watching each other die slowly.
The is no longer a clear understanding of who the terrorist is anymore!!

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 2035 GMT

racasel.

I watched this debate live on Aljazeera. one thing they are not showing here is her opponents reply she was told by him that she is Ignorant about Islam because she is not a Muslim actually she could not answer most of the Questions by her opponent. her Family disowned her some family members said that she ran away because she was a prostitute.

Serge   January 12th, 2009 2044 GMT

A Tough Choice for Israel

Israel does not have much time before its military superiority and its reliance on US support starts to weaken. Cracks in this alliance are already appearing. Israel faces a near unanimous condemnation from the international community. Its PR war to justify the current incursion makes a failing grade. It is trying to hide its Achilles’ heals by hitting Gaza even harder. Israel is acutely aware that it has no chance of winning a political conflict in a battlefield. In fact it has lost this round already. In the end its formidable weaponry and unbridled US support would be the main reason for its downfall. It will prevent Israel from seeking true peace instead of impose one. The landscape in the Middle East and around the world is changing but not in Israel’s favor. After the Gaza dust settles, Israel would be advised to invest in an honest and lasting peace by agreeing to return to pre-1967 boundaries. Failing to do so will make Israel face a very uncertain future. Here is why.
1. Israel is of no strategic importance to the United States. Its current relationship is shaped out guilt from time gone by. Future generations of US leaders will be reluctant to frame their foreign policy on past conjectures. Israel may not be able to enjoy US protection for long.
2. The turmoil of the Middle East and US policy of unconditional Israeli support is hurting US image even among its allies. US cannot continue to be seen as dishonest broker.
3. With the wide use of the Internet media Americans can now see unfiltered news that paint the Mid-East situated in very different light than their own TV sets.
4. Iraq war has made American wary of politicians. They are now looking for a change in foreign policy that does not drag US in proxy wars for others.
5. US plans to invest heavily in renewable energy and more secure Canadian oil sands for its future needs. This move will free the US of its heavy reliance on Arab oil and will weaken the need for a strong Israel-US alliance.
6. The power shift from the West to the East with the rise of China and India will leave the US relatively weaker. This will play against Israeli interest.
7. Iran is gaining strength and could become nuclear rival neutralizing Israel’s current advantage. Continuing Palestine-Israel hostilities could one day ignite the entire Middle East and beyond.
8. Israel’s current incursion into Gaza in the long run will strengthen Hamas’ popularity among Arab populace
9. US will likely broker a deal with the Talibans in Afghanistan. This will be seen as victory by forces against Israel.
10. Although less likely Arab states will get their act together to pose a common front to Israel.
11. Israel’s continued defiance of UN will weaken the international body if it hasn’t done already. This would ultimately harm Israel.
12. Israel has very few friends to lean on and even less in the Middle East region. It risks losing the remaining support due to its uncompromising attitude.
13. Many corrupt Mid-East Sheikhdoms will give way to more emancipated rulers that may not sit idle while Palestinians languish in Israel’s Warsaw-like ghettos.

CS   January 12th, 2009 2045 GMT

AAAHHH. Finally, someone from the region comes out with it. THANK YOU GLENN!!!. Maybe Hamas is stupid for firing missiles into Israel. I DO think that Palestine has run out of patience waiting for the U.N. to intercede, thus giving Hamas an argument. I think Hamas just want to fight...period. However, Israel gives them a very good reason to fight. Just agreeing on paper to leave Gaza, but still opressing them from behind the scenes, and with the help of other nations is unacceptable.
The U.S./Israel?Britain, and others are hypocrites. Israel bombs Palestine with American made ammunition. Nobody says that America is "Aiding TerrORISTS" When Egypt allows the tunnels to stay open, why are they not called allies instead of "harberers of terrosist"

CS   January 12th, 2009 2104 GMT

I think that there is a way to fix this problem. In 1948, the U.S. and U.N. got Israel on it's feet. In fact, to this day, the artillary used by Israel comes from The U.S. In its 60 short years, Israel has become a flourishing democracy, and powerful nation. Not because they're "Gods's people" or any kind of misconception, but because it was nourished, and given training wheels by other governments.
Regardless of how I, and others feel about Palestine ( they're horribly opressed and raped country), the same should be done for them. If they were given a chance at

1. Freedom from opression from Israel, no blockades, no control of water/imports by Israel. COMPLETE independance from Israeli interference.

2. Infrastructure. If they were given funding, and engineering help with electricity plants (Water turbines/wind/and ro solar), they could have an economy that works. People could have jobs, and the energy could be clean, and nobody would have to be concerned about nuclear plants.

3. More infrastructure. Roads (paved that is), bridges.

4. Education. We all know that educated nations tend to flourish.

5. Defense (non-nukes initially of course). If the people had a strong enough military to protect from outside influence in the region, they would not have to rely on groups like Hamas to fight for them.

I'm no great leader of nations, or any sized group for that matter, but it has been done for other nations, including Israel. Why not Palestine. It has been too long.

I might also add that if these things happened, and the people had something to hold onto, something to leave to their children, hope for their children, and dignity for it's elders, and frankly, something productive to do for the age group in the middle...People would not allow groups like Hamas/Al Quaida to bully them. They would be frowned upon in the community, right before having a firm ass kicking by the local authorities/guard. Same as here. If things get out of hand, we have agencies to intervene.

Anita   January 12th, 2009 2105 GMT

Israel, I cannot judge for fighting back and I cannot judge you on how far you've taken this but the death toll is extreme. However, I do know, he is watching you cleanse your body in all this blood as he watched someone else cleanse their body in Israel's blood. Oh, Israel remember his Judgement is the Word.

Glenn   January 12th, 2009 2110 GMT

Don't be fooled by Israel's claims that they are winning... There are no winners in any conflict, may it be a family dispute, LA eastside/westside, cross-border conflicts. This war will bite us all in the rear; I am thinking that the future generations of Palestinians will remember how they were attacked, children and elderly killed/injured, schools, mosques, hospitals destroyed. All other facts like Hamas firing rockets to Israel will be null, and the fighting cycle will rinse and repeat.

The cease-fire must happen NOW. Aid must be given to the needy, and leaders must SIT and TALK, get a comprimise and have extremist groups accountable for any wrongdoing.

Freedom, Peace, Acceptance will not happen overnight; but we should TRY and SET AN EXAMPLE for the future generations. This must also be applicable to the other continents as well.

ONE WORLD y'all. When is the better time than now?

Isreal Lover   January 12th, 2009 2116 GMT

To Sick WIth Empathy, The few guilty in Gaza number some 20,000 Hamas miltant crazies who have terrorized the ordinary Palestinians for the last 8 years. Also, they took control of the Fatah/Abbas factions there in a bloody takeover, killing many of them. The Palestinians did elect Hamas and must take some responsibilty for that choice, even if in reality they probably didn't dare voice real opposition.

Would Hamas agree to a cease fire for a couple of days to let all the civilians (women, children, unarmed men) leave Gaza .... would Egypt or some area outside Gaza strip be willing to take these people temporarily? Then Isreal/Hamas could finish the fight by themselves.
Why don't utra rich Gulf Arab states fly in a few planes to evacuate these people? They easily have the money, transport and areas in the Gulf to house them temporarily. So far, Hamas doesn't want to agree to anything?

CS   January 12th, 2009 2124 GMT

RIGHT ON GLENN!!
To Israel lover. Don't be so quick to place the blame on Palestine. I can see you are a true Supporter of Israel because you give examples of things to do for everyone in the region, except for Israel. Israel has i'ts part in this. They are far from innocent. (govt wise). And to the supporters of Israel. Not long ago, Jews were being killed by the masses, the same way Muslims are being killed by the masses today. So tell me what makes you different from those who blindliy supported The LUNE called Hitler. He too, said that a group of people were the cause of all the world's trouble. He too said that the Nazi's were "chosen" to be the master race. What makes you any different?
I see nothing at all.

Rouz from California   January 12th, 2009 2126 GMT

I think all of it would be settled if the rightful owners of the land were occupying it.... That means that Israel wouldn't exist I guess, maybe... Maybe it would and it would be smaller. Unfortunately,

Israel is about to silence the Arab voice in Israel's government. That doesn't seem very democratic, especially since 20% of the population is Arab.

In the mean time, how does anyone justify dropping bombs on Gaza? The only answer would be ethnic cleansing. They are fish in a barrel. Their borders and economy was cut off so any reserves they had were low. An instant humanitarian crisis was surely going to develope. Can anyone sit there and tell me Israeli military intel didn't know about it?

You cannot justify killing an innocent civillian to save a soldiers life. These bombs are wrong and unjustifiable. It deeply disturbs me that anyone can stand behind the use of these weapons of mass destruction.

It is not about whose land it is now, right now it is about stopping this criminal act. I don't care whose side you are on, if you do not act or support a stop to this, we will all pay for it.

Tony Larue   January 12th, 2009 2133 GMT

Serge,

Wow, what a thought provoking and powerful commentory. I sincerely hope the powers that be in Israel and it's citizens take note.

You cannot kill all the people in Gaza and destroy their infrastucture and expect business as usual. There is a new day a dawning folks and we'll all be better for it.. Sege, I am counting on you and the world who is not anti-Israel but have to face the facts. Please give Brother Obama all the help he needs to make the much needed changes.

This sad destruction of Gaza maybe the straw that broke the camel's back. My only fear is the problems Mr. Obama will get by making much needed changes in Middle East policy.

The US has no more billions for aid to Israel and they know it and it is starting to show.

Finally, if israel decides to hit Iran goodbye Israel and it will be their own fault. My fear is they will do it either before Obama takes office or there after. I DO NOT TRUST ISRAEL AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU!

sadman   January 12th, 2009 2133 GMT

This is a sad situation and so sad I am.
In order to better understand this horrible situation I went to learn a bit of a history.
I truely recommand all readers to do so.
It will increase your ability to write a talkback which is a bit more connected to reality.
Here is the link:

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
What Really Happened In The Middle East – Terrorism Awareness Project

Serge   January 12th, 2009 2140 GMT

ISRAEL MUST WITHDRAW TO ITS LEGAL PRE-1967 BOARDERS. PALESTINIANS HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO CONTINUE THEIR STRUGGLE TO GET ISRAEL OUT OF THE LAND THAT WAS CARVED OUT FOR THEIR HOMELAND.

ISRAEL, STOP ACTING LIKE A SPOILED KID AND GET THE HELL OUT OF THEIR LAND. GIVE UP WHAT IS NOT YOUR. STOP MISLEADING THE WORLD AND FEEDING TERRORISM.

NO ONE WILL GIVE A DAMN WHAT ISRAEL DOES WITHIN ITS LEGAL BOARDERS AND NOT AN INCH MORE. HAMAS WILL HAVE NO SUPPORT OR REASON TO LOB ROCKETS AT YOU. YOU CAN'T KILL THEM ALL. I KNOW YOU ARE TRYING.

HAMAS HAS A MORAL RIGHT TO HIT ITS OPPRESSOR. DO YOU GET IT ISRAEL. WILL YOU WITHDRAW TO YOUR RIGHTFUL BOARDERS. LET ME GUESS – YOU WON'T. YOU WILL USE ANY EXCUSE UNDER THE SUN TO KEEP STOLEN LAND UNTIL YOUR LIFE BECOMES UNBEARABLE. THAT MAY HAPPEN SOONER THAN YOU THINK.

IS THIS A ROCKET SCIENCE?

Isreal Lover   January 12th, 2009 2142 GMT

Correction: Too many people to evacuate quickly. Instead, lets take Hamas and Isreali military to the Empty Quarter desert and let them fight it out. Winner, takes all.

This conflict reminds me of a never-ending ugly divorce. He said/she said and on it goes.

Calli   January 12th, 2009 2146 GMT

What makes supporters of Israel different from "those who blindly supported the LUNE called Hitler?"

Well, for starters, Hitler and his armies were NOT doing their dirty work to defend their citizens against 11,000 rockets launced at their civilians (and counting).

There's more, but I won't bother. You cannot see the difference. Always a pity when men gouge out their own eyes and then complain that they can't see.

Glenn   January 12th, 2009 2220 GMT

"Well, for starters, Hitler and his armies were NOT doing their dirty work to defend their citizens against 11,000 rockets launced at their civilians (and counting).

There’s more, but I won’t bother. You cannot see the difference. Always a pity when men gouge out their own eyes and then complain that they can’t see."

The Palestinian will always argue that it would not have happened if their land has not been occupied forcefully. And the Israelis will counter-argue that they are merely defending their land. And the Palestinians will counter-counter-argue that they are merely defending theirs as well.. so on... blah blah blah.. yada yada yada.

Stop arguing and provide solutions... Both sides are being hard headed and not looking at logic – Innocent civilians from both sides are affected and dying.

Damien Blackley   January 12th, 2009 2238 GMT

Had Israel attack Iran, would it still exist?

The facts are that Iran would not attack Israel, this would simply give the Americans an excuse to do to Iran what Israel is doing in Gaza. Punish the Innocent.

It is better for Israel to give the Palestinians there independence and make peace with their neighbors now . Why, because there is every indication that Iraq will have a similar regime to Iran. Look at who is fast becoming the dominant religious party in Iraq.

Remeber the Iranian Revolution.

Degi   January 12th, 2009 2321 GMT

YOU NEED TO WAKE UP AMERICA!
YOU ARE WORSE THAN NORTH KOREA, your goverment is controlled by isreal and jews who control everything, your media your army your president. YOU THINK YOU HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH and FREEDOM OF EVERYTHING, but you DONT. Numorous freelance journalists have been silenced or killed, websites shut down, but there are still ppl who want to let out the truth.

WAR IN IRAQ was for one purpose only: oil and strengthening of Isreal. Even theories taht 911 was an inside job to get support on AL-Quada (which strongly opposed Isreal force on Gaza), and Iraq (lies about WMD's). The thousands dead in Iraq are 100% america's fault.

WAR ON GAZA: the cease fire was broken in november when isreal gunemen attacked and killed 6 palestines, which resulted in rockets starting to fire from Hamas. If this was Russia attacking Georgia the USA would be flying in straight away, but oh wait Isreal controls USA so americans cant do squat.

FUTURE WAR ON IRAN: Iran is a part of the nuclear treaty and has the right to build civilian nuclear facilites, and its a violation of international law that the US even mentioned force on Iran. and your media has mistranslated and blocked what the president of iran was saying during that 60m interview.

AND YOU AMERICANS WONDER WHERE THE HATE IS COMING FROM, its directed at your blindess and stupidity, being controlled by power hungry jews.

Seriously look for media other than the now isreal controlled main stream media you watch on tv and cnn etc. I wont be surprised if this is deleted in 5 mins.

Seriously WAKE UP, YOU ARE THE ONES BLIND, not the world.

Isreal Lover   January 12th, 2009 2324 GMT

Serge – A Tough Choice for Israel
After the Gaza dust settles, Israel would be advised to invest in an honest and lasting peace by agreeing to return to pre-1967 boundaries. Failing to do so will make Israel face a very uncertain future. Here is why.

1. Absolutely disagree. Isreal is of great strategic importance to the United States because of Iran. Further, the rich Gulf Arab countries pay for U.S. military protection because of Iran. e.g. Kuwait paid for the U.S. to defend it from Iraq in the first Gulf War. Do you know how much money is tied up between the U.S. and Saudi, UAE, Qatar and how big the U.S. military bases are in the region, along with the U.S. navy in the Arabian Gulf. Isreal is and always will be the only true U.S. ally in the ME region and the U.S. cannot afford to lose their help.

2. The turmoil of the Middle East and US policy of unconditional Israeli support is hurting US image even among its allies. US cannot continue to be seen as dishonest broker.

Quite frankly, the US image is being hurt in Europe and I don't really think we care too damn much. In fact Britain and its weird PM Brown and his current gov't need a reality check the way things are going over there. How many other countries in the world are honest brokers? China, North Korea, Iran? Give me a break!

3. With the wide use of the Internet media Americans can now see unfiltered news that paint the Mid-East situated in very different light than their own TV sets.

Yeah, you got this right. In Canada we now have the "thought police". Human Rights Comm. which censor our newspapers big time but they can't censor the internet so gov'ts. can't hide their scandals as much anymore.

4. Iraq war has made American wary of politicians. They are now looking for a change in foreign policy that does not drag US in proxy wars for others.

True, they cannot afford the money another proxy war like Iraq but I'm not sure if Democrats are going to bring about this change in short term. Be interesting to see what Obama slam dama does. Hopefully H. Clinton will be tougher than Rice also? Otherwise, Dems will be gone in 4 years.

5. US plans to invest heavily in renewable energy and more secure Canadian oil sands for its future needs. This move will free the US of its heavy reliance on Arab oil and will weaken the need for a strong Israel-US alliance.

Well, we'll just see how much Canada wants to give the US of our oil sands. lol Actually, China has invested heavily in them also. The problem is development of these oil sands to meet US needs is quite a few years off (something to do with the extraction process?) Anyway, the Gulf Arab States will still want US military protection. Not kidding the Sunis will not under any circumstances want Shite Iran or Iraq to control them.

6. The power shift from the West to the East with the rise of China and India will leave the US relatively weaker. This will play against Israeli interest.

I believe India will be in alliance with the West because of threat of Pakistan and Afghanistan. China growth is phenomenol and it needs world oil supplies badly so will have to be careful. Also, China does not want conflict with Japan or North Korea.

7. Iran is gaining strength and could become nuclear rival neutralizing Israel’s current advantage. Continuing Palestine-Israel hostilities could one day ignite the entire Middle East and beyond.

Iran will likely have nuclear capability by the end of 2011 and that has the US very worried. Isreal took out Syria's secret nuclear reactor in Sept./2007. This will help delay a little bit. North Korea and China engineers are working on extending the range of the Scud missiles now. The Russians play both sides. Syria and Iran refuse to give up their alliance. Conflict is coming and the U.S. needs Isreal to help in this because they have better intelligence and better experience in covert ops. in the area.

8. Israel’s current incursion into Gaza in the long run will strengthen Hamas’ popularity among Arab populace

I don't know, I hope not because Hamas, Hizbollah, Taliban do not represent majority of Muslims. I don't think militant Islam serves anybody. Egypt and Jordan depend on a lot of U.S. aid also.

9. US will likely broker a deal with the Talibans in Afghanistan. This will be seen as victory by forces against Israel.

They might have to. This is a difficult country. So many tribes and nobody has ever won there yet, not the Russians, not U.S. Canada is pulling out in 2011 so don't know if present gov't will be strong enough to stay in power there.

10. Although less likely Arab states will get their act together to pose a common front to Israel.

Too, many and they all have their own interests at heart. In fact right now, they are remaining strangely silent for the most part in the Gaza conflict because they don't want the Iranian inflence to expand in ME. The rich Gulf States restrict their immigration to the max. to protect their own native populations.

11. Israel’s continued defiance of UN will weaken the international body if it hasn’t done already. This would ultimately harm Israel.

Nobody respects the UN and it is just a big beaucratic, inefficient entity. The US pays the most in funding it (22%) so has the most influence. Japan is second. The UN needs reorganization or disolving or something. It has repeatedly targeted Isreal unfairly. Esp. that UNHRC full of members states who lack any human rights policy in their own countries. e.g. Saudi, China, African regimes – at least 15 to 20 of them don't have any HR and are not democracies. It's a joke.

12. Israel has very few friends to lean on and even less in the Middle East region. It risks losing the remaining support due to its uncompromising attitude.

Isreal has always been more aligned with US, West. Europe anyway. The objective of ME region has been primarily to destroy Isreal since it became a state but it has survived against formidable odds. I don't know much about Isreali politics over there. It's far away from N. America.

13. Many corrupt Mid-East Sheikhdoms will give way to more emancipated rulers that may not sit idle while Palestinians languish in Israel’s Warsaw-like ghettos.

I tell you Dubai is pretty emancipated already. Qatar, UAE, Oman, Kuwait want to align themselves with the US long term because they need this alliance. Even the Saudi Royals don't want to cut ties with US. Too much money invested with each other. That means they have to tolerate Isreal or at best ignore that Isreal comes with the US alliance.
They won't admit it but they like our western lifestyle too much also. Ha, ha.
I don't think Isreal really wants to keep Palestinians in ghettos, they just want to live in peace and have said so many times over.

Maybe, I am just too gullible or niave. Pls. excuse spelling mistakes.

TIm   January 12th, 2009 2334 GMT

Israel is in violation of several international agreements, including the agreements in Oslo about settlements in the west bank, and are alos in direct violation of the UN resolution 181 which states that the country of palestine be evenly partioned, but Israel invaded and took most of the original terriorty alloted to the palestinians in 1947, and then again in 1967 Isreal stole more land including the GOlan hieghts from Syria. Isreal must stop its terroristic actions, and Hamas must be taken out of power because they are a joke too. They need to put down the weapons and begin peaceful demonstartions i know they ahvent worked in the past, but they must try its the only way to stop the occupation and attoricties in gaza

CS   January 12th, 2009 2337 GMT

Israel lover. YOU ARE RETARDED. Do you know how silly, barbaric, and schoolyardish you sound, talking about "fight it out" and "winner takes all"? The next thing you'll be saying "two men enter, one man leaves" This is the type of immature, cowboy diplomacy that leads to genocide, with nothing changed at the end of it all. Just because Hamas does things the wrong way, does not mean all of Palestine should suffer.

Hany   January 12th, 2009 2345 GMT

Nick,

I am a practicing Muslim born and raised in America. I agree with many of the posts here regarding this situation being a humanitarian issue rather than a religious issue. If it were Europeans being murdered i'd be equally angry with the acts of genocide, much like those in darfur, sudan. I do however want to address your comments on the practices of Muslims and Jihad. Jihad itself in the Islamic faith means sacrifice. Now this can be any sacrifice. It could be temptation of food during fasting or even abstaining from sexual/adulterous temptation.

As a practicing Muslim i just really want to point out that the argument of the 72 virgins as a reward in heaven is considered by majority of Muslim Scholars as a weakly credilble source in historical teachings and documents. So the vast majority of practicing Muslims do no actually believe that this will be the reward for giving one's life (not counting the extremists perspectives) and it is not even mentioned in the Qur'an.

Something that is mentioned in the Qur'an is that: to murder a person, would be as if you killed all of humanity. Islam is a peaceful religion, just like Christianity, and Judaism are in essence peaceful religions. However, its the actions of a few (like the israeli gov.) and people that hijacked the planes in 9/11, and individuals like Timothy McVeigh (oklahoma city bombings) who tarnish our views of these religions.

In sum... Please don't go around quoting things regarding Religion if you have not devoted your life to studying it, and do not have credible sources, just speculation and regurgitation of what you hear in the media.

Sorry for the long message.

waleed   January 12th, 2009 2351 GMT

how funny that CNN and fox and all the other u.s media saying that Israel is not allowing western media into Gaza, who are you kidding ' there's no way that your Jewish friends would allow you to show these horrific pictures of children bodies burned by the white phosphoric agent that Israel is using on them ' this inhuman act against Innocent civilians and calling sefl-defense. in all my life I have never seen anything like this, and we have the odecity to call ourselves humans..my heaven not even anialms do this to one another and on a much pathtic note ' some claim that ' God is on their side' logic can only beg the question ' what kind of a God is that?

CS   January 12th, 2009 2359 GMT

Degi. I agree 100%, and I am American. I agree that