Ahh, the UNRWA!!! It consists of 18 nations,.The human rights records of over half the nations are horrific. The CIA World Factbook and The US State Department reports many of these countries as : sources of human trafficking, sexual exploitation and forced labor, abuse of trafficking victims in courtrooms, engaging in violence against women and children, extrajudicial killings, physical and psychological torture, infringement on religious freedom, and practicing female genital mutilation. Multiple nations in this committee are on the US State Department’s Tier 2 Watch List for failing to provide evidence of increasing efforts to combat human trafficking, punish traffickers, identify victims and refer them to safety and care.

This past March, the UN Human Rights Council further elected a “Human Rights Advisory Committee” which includes Cuba, China, Egypt, Morocco, Nigeria, and Kenya. To me, it makes as much sense to appoint Iran to be in charge of preventing nuclear proliferation.

I am very saddened to hear about this death. I hope that next time they will coordinate with IDF on such ventures, including the route. That can help the aid worker's safety. I am also surprised that he didn't go through in those 3 hours.

Soon. Very soon.

Beny – excellent point. Again, I propose a tactical nuclear deployment on Gaza. It would create an immediate cease-fire, and not a single rocket would ever be launched into Israel from Gaza or Lebanon after a tactical nuclear solution.

ok I just Read this report on Washington Post

Red Cross Reports Grisly Find in Gaza
Israel Accused of Blocking Aid to Wounded
By Craig Whitlock and Griff Witte
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, January 8, 2009; 10:23 AM
JERUSALEM, Jan. 8 - The International Committee of the Red Cross said Thursday that it had found at least 15 bodies and several children - emaciated but alive - in a row of shattered houses in the Gaza Strip, and officials with the agency accused the Israeli military of preventing ambulances from reaching the bombed-out site for four days.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010800842.html?hpid=topnews

In an unusual public statement issued by its Geneva headquarters, the Red Cross called the episode "unacceptable" and said the Israeli military had "failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded."

When rescue workers from the Red Cross and the Palestinian Red Crescent arrived at the site, they found 12 corpses lying on mattresses in one home, along with four young children lying next to their dead mothers, the Red Cross said. The children were too weak to stand and were rushed to a hospital, the agency said.

How would the US population feel, if the US was occupied by another country, who put a concrete wall around its borders and took away almost all possibility to live a normal life for its citizens. If this country started to build settlements on US land and did so by forcing the former occupants of this land to leave their homes.
Do you not think that the people of USA would oppose this in order to be free and able to live a "normal" life again?
The people who opposed the occupying forces in countries occupied by the Germans during World War II, are seen as freedom fighters in their countries.
Can we start to focus on WHY some of the Palestinian people have felt the need to act with such violence towards Israel!
Maybe we all would benefit by "walking in their shoes" for a while.

i agree with u kevin, but let's wait and see what happens first on the philly corridor, if we get that we can get a good cease fire

Just an interesting note from today:

Taking the train from Tel-Aviv today, in the four-seat cubicle I sat formed a very interesting group: an Egoz soldier who returned from the fighting, a teacher from Netivot (rocketed town like Sderot), an Arab from Lod whose relatives live in Gaza, and yours truly.

A very interesting conversation followed: after being united by me saying "hey hey! we're all Israeli here, right?", the soldier described the inside, on how every other building is wired to explode, how every little hole can have an AK-47 poking out. He tells of groups of women and children carrying white flags, whom they escorted to their destination. Families begging the soldiers for food, and how his commander called for more rations next time.
How suddenly a group of people have a shooter inside them, attacking the soldiers. How sometimes you have time to figure out who the shooter is, and sometimes you don't. How it feels to see a rocket launcher prepare to fire with kids around him. What brought them there? Curiosity? By force? He asks for permission. He aims at the launcher. Kills him. The kids scatter. Thank god no one innocent hurt.

The Lod guy desribing, in tears, how his cousin was killed by Hamas members a few years ago in the civil war. How his uncle is severely injured from a crossfire between Hamas and IDF. He doesn't know who shot him. Doesn't care, either. How he hates Hamas. Said a few harsh things about IDF, too, but most of it was through sobbing. The Egoz guy tries to justify. The Arab doesn't hear any of it. Crying uncontrolably, he leaves at Lod station.

The Netivot woman tries to placate him, support him, repeating "soon it will all be over". After the Arab leaves, the Egoz guy asks if she thinks of leaving. She says she would never abandon her students. She practically lives in the shelter, though. Had some near-death experiences. Everyone has. She shakes the soldier's hand, saying he keeps her safe.

That's where I left.

Rod,

What would you expect from a terrorist State?

Arinna,

Very well said. Until we can put ourselves in their shoes... we should not try to judge them.

thank you Benny and Kevin.
yes,All of this War is surprising for me.the UNRWA Driver don't go through in 3 hours and there is a suspecting point,Rocket fired from south of Lebanon and there is no one responsible for it.we all know that this region is belong to whom.and so on.
please se my blog at : http://salutmiddleeast.wordpress.com/

Why is CNN's reporting of this conflict so one sided? CNN always takes the side of the Palestinians and I'm sick and tired of it. Between you and MSNBC, I don't which one of you is worse.

You think that Hamas doesn't know what it's doing? They invariably put their own people in harms way purposely to gain sympathy among the naive masses in the western world. They don't care who gets killed; they never did.

No one had very much empathy for the Jews when Hitler was slaughtering them. Things are a little lopsided! No one wants violence, but Israel has the right to defend itself any way it can. You have no right to sit in judgement of them; not after what the Jews have been through over the years. So start reporting acurately for once in your lives.

And, why didn't you report on some of the comments that have been made at these violent pro-Palestinian rallys that have been taking place. Some of these wonderful people have called for the extermination of the Jews again with comments like "go back to ovens where you belong"????????

If you don't report acurately, then I guess you're just anti-semetic and anti-Israel. Can't you ever be neutral?

Arinna,

And if you never had to deal with terrorism, you have no right to pass judgement.

what hamas does is not only disgusting its cowardly, but there strategy is designed to sucker the stup[id western media into believing how bad israel is, the idf needs to be allowed to finish the fight

What Israel is doing is not only disgusting but its cowardly too.

arina

that is exactly what the US did, occupied the land of the population, put them into walled reservations and sold them firewater

what is ur point?

CNN recently gave an article about a photographer who filmed his brother dying. Beside deeply saddening as it was, it raised a question- a Palestinian is hurt, how come the most important thing to do is whipping out a camera? Why do they always have to film people dying? Israelis always suffered quietly. Hamas flaut their injured for the world to see.

beny

don't waste logic on the israel haters

it is bad thet the UNRWA driver was killed, everybody is yelling at Isarel

but when Hamas shoots rockets and mortars from UNWRA schools, everybody is suddenly very very quiet

beny

and something else (to use the logic of the israel bashers)

1. Who says this movie is real?
2. who says it's his brother?
3. Who says the guy died, we remeber the Jenin "body" jumping from the stretcher when shooting started
4. this must be a mossad movie, it is too good

When you read more about the issue you can know it was not Hamas who broke the cease fire.

Read what was happening and I will tell you if you were living in Gaza you might be launching rockets yourself.

Now that the palestinians have no power we said why did they do this. well palestinians were dying from hunger. the blockade was not to prevent Hamas from getting weapons it was to humiliate the palestinians and make there life more miserable
Put yourself in their shoes then judge for yourself.
i suggest that you read these two articles

An Experiment in Famine
Hamas is Not the Real Issue
By NEVE GORDON who politics at Ben-Gurion University, Israel
http://www.counterpunch.org/gordon01302008.html

Molten Lead
by Uri Avnery a syndicated Israeli writer
http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html

Arinna –

You DO realize what the terminology "occupation" means, don't you? It means the existence of Israel!

When you hear somebody complaining Israel is "occupying" Palestinian territories, what they are saying is "Israel exists, and as long as it does, it is an occupation."

Don't be misled by the euphemisms used by PR spinners.

Amen Nona. Exactly. "Professor"'s assertions have been proven fallacious countless times over the last couple of days.
Hamas as a faction of the Moslem Brotherhood seeks the grand strategy of Islamicizing the Middle East and eventually the world as spelled out in their covenant. Ideologically they had no choice but to go to war. As for material well being there was no real improvement in Gaza and after a year in power Hamas has nothing to show for its "revolution". Steadfastly ideological, Hamas refused all compromises brokered by Egypt and preferred constant conflict with Israel. The Hamas diocentric leadership is steeped firmly in the belief of their own invincibility as Allah is their patron in the war against the infidels and heretics. Such logic dictates their missile offensive against Israel. To further their strategy for ultimate victory Hamas moved from being a tactical nuisance to the Jewish State to upgrading itself into a strategic threat by increasing its rocket capacity whereby the port of Ashdod serving Tel Aviv and the center of the country and the capital of the Negev, Beersheva were now victims of missile attacks. Peace is "defeat" and was never an option for Hamas.

Hamas decided to go to war in the aftermath of the tahadiya (calm) by firing dozens of rockets into Israel each day for over a week (eventually reaching a daily count of 60). The hope was to rally the Arab/Islamic world to their side, very similar to Yasir Arafat's strategy when he turned down the Camp David peace initiative and the Clinton Outline during the second half of 2000. The Palestinian Authority's Low Intensity Conflict/Terror Offensive – better known as the "Second Intifada" in popular journalistic terminology failed miserably yet Hamas hopes to succeed as they expect an increasingly Islamicized Arab world to come to their aid.

But Hamas could not do it on their own. With some 500 tunnels connecting the Egyptian border with southern Gaza at Rafiah, weapons, ammunition and massive amounts of explosives passed underground into Hamas hands. Cairo refused to take any serious action to halt the smuggling when a simple blockade to the west of Egyptian Rafiah was all that was necessary before the contraband made its way underground. It appears Egypt wanted to avoid a showdown with Hamas and its own Moslem Brotherhood who gained increased support in the last election. To allow a smoldering border war between Hamas and Israel seemed to be preferable as opposed to trying to repress the Islamists and possibly facing an explosion on the streets of Cairo.
Similar to the Second War in Lebanon (2006) the West and the moderate secular Arab regimes are desperate for an Israeli victory cutting Hamas down to size. The Islamists must be perceived as losing or at least halted in their jihad against secularization in the Arab world. Public opinion shifts with the victor making any Hamas success a serious impediment to stability and a strategic threat to the Moslem/Arab world's secular states. For Hamas the Islamization of all Arab states is just one of the first steps on the way to world domination in the name of Allah.

As an American Jew who is a supporter of Israel, I am saddened by any loss of innocent women, men or children that are killed on either side. However, the anti-Israel sentiment and a rise in anti-Semtism is a great concern. My primary comment is what is Israel suppose to do? When Israeli citizens live under constant fear of random attacks on a daily basis, how can that continue? The issue of proportionality has been all over the media. What country in the midst of a war sends leaflets announcing where they will be bombing? If less Israelis have been killed it is because the Israelis have built bomb shelters that are used frequently during attacks. Hamas has no problem building tunnels that are used for transferring weapons and they place stategic military targets in the midst of schools and mosques. It appears that Hamas does not value the lives of the residents of Gaza as well as Israel. Now Lebanon is firing rockets into Northern Israel. Will there be a world outrage over this? Should Israel get out of Gaza and just now fire random rockets? Is proportionality that for every rocket that enters Israel randomly that Israel should now launch rockets randomly into Gaza and now Lebanon?The world would condemn Israel again for these randon firings. I am hoping for a successful settling of this problem. I am in favor of a 2 state solution. But as long as you have terrorist organizations such as Hamas and countries such as Iran that will only be happy when Israel is wiped off the face of the earth, what is Israel to do?

1. Gaza has a border with Egypt. If there is a blockade by the Israelis and Gaza has been sealed, why are the muslim brethren from Egypt not helping their brothers ansd sisters?
2. Why are the Gazans dependent on Israel for Gas, water,electricity when they could be supplied by Egypt, their fellow Moslems? The wealth of the Arab world could be funnelled through Egypt to help the poor Palestinians. Why is this not happening?
3. The duty of a government is to protect and look after its citizens/electorate. Why didn't Hamas if determined on rocketing Israel, build shelters for the people? Surely they knew that if they were going to tread on a lion's tale for 8 years the lion would turn on them.
4. Can someone please explain to me what Hamas wants? I mean I know Israel wants a two state solution. Does Hamas just want total destruction of Israel? Were they "elected" on that manifesto? How can you talk to psomeone whose whole purpose is to wipe you out....how can you negotiate?
5. Can someone explain to me why the Gazans/Hamas can fire indiscriminately on Israel for years and years and not expect Israel to eventually act to safeguard its people?
6. Can someone explain to me why HOLOCAUST is an appropriate description of what is going on. THere were 3,000000 jews in Poland before the war, about 20,000 survived. So far just over 600 Gazans have been killed. The vast majority members of Hamas. That's not a HOLOCAUST.
7. Where were all the humanitarians when the suicide bombers were rampant. Where are all the human right activists in Sderot.
8. Can someone please explain to me the difference betwen anti Zionism and ant-semitism. To me if you are an anti-Zionist you are anti the Jews having a Homeland, but fine for the English, French, Hashemites (who incidentally rule a land with which they have no connection with). So in my book if you're anti the jews having a homeland but don't mind everyone else having one, then you are anti-jewish or an anti-semite.
9. Finally, I think Golda Meir's comment is apt here. Israel would rather at this point have the world's conemnation tan her condolences.

No mention in this blog of Israel's response to the allegation.

So called 'balanced reporting'

As yet there has been no report by any aid organization about Hamas gunmen,booby-trapped homes, Hamas execution of Fatah, Hamas tunnels etc etc.

I suppose you'll claim they're not even there.

The ceasefire was violated several times by Isreal

CNN confirms that is was broken by israel 2 months ago

http://www.youtube.comwatch?v=KntpoRXFX4

Now that the palestinians have no power we said why did they do this. well palestinians were dying from hunger. the blockade was not to prevent Hamas from getting weapons it was to humiliate the palestinians and make there life more miserable
Put yourself in their shoes then judge for yourself.
i suggest that you read these two articles

An Experiment in Famine
Hamas is Not the Real Issue
By NEVE GORDON who politics at Ben-Gurion University, Israel
http://www.counterpunch.org/gordon01302008.html

Molten Lead
by Uri Avnery a syndicated Israeli writer
http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html

Lynda,

Just go listen to FOX.... it will fit you better.

CNN is reporting the FACTS.... just like BBC is doing.... unlike FOX who reports what the Israeli Embassy provide to them.

How do you expect CNN and BBC to report other than the way they are reporting when they are not allowed to be on the ground in Gaza?....

I think then you will feel they are one sided even stronger than you feel now.

Again... you are eating from what you have planted.

What's your deal profesor, are all academics kool aid drinking lefty loons or is it that your knickers are too tight, u seem to take great pride in bashing israel but never holding the pals accountable for there mistakes, its not only disgusting and coeardly its dangerous why don't u go live amongst your terrorist brothers, i'm sure they'll treat u fairly(fifth column)

Brandon360 :
"Professor" isn't an academic – he just uses that name.

I suggest everyone read the Charter of Hamas :
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

These are the animals we are dealing with here. Here are some quotes from its "Charter":
“Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.”
“he Islamic Resistance Movement draws its guidelines from Islam; derives from it its thinking, interpretations and views about existence, life and humanity; refers back to it for its conduct; and is inspired by it in whatever step it takes.”
“Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims.”

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement.

Article 28 of the Hamas Charter:
Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”

The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!

Now it's time for Iran to help the palestinians. The jews. . . must stop the genocide.

Hector.

Wow what an Idea.... :)

CNN may be reporting the facts, but not all of them. Very selectively edited facts included; very selectively edited facts omitted.

And as far as letting journalists in, um, there's no shortage of photos coming out Gaza, so that's a lame complaint. It's a freaking war zone and NO civilians are allowed in, and journalists are civilians. It's not like Hamas was letting reporters in to document their rocket attacks on Israel, or that Hezbollah invited the press in last night. It's not like journalists were invited to come cover the Iran-Iraq war, or the war in Chechnya, or the bombing of the US Cole, or allowed on to Ground Zero in the midst of the crisis. There is such a thing as civilian and military security. Lame complaint.

Hector, where in the hell do you think Hamas & Hezbollah got their rockets, dude?

Geez, brilliant insight.

Yeah Lynda... listen to False Prof. here

Read the neutral, unbiased FOX instead of the extremely anti-Israeli BBC.

Compared to Al-Jazeera where the Arabs get their news...

Can you please replay all the bus attacks. mall attacks, suicide bomb attacks that were done to the Israeli people and post the total amount killed in all these terrorist attacks?
After you air reports on what rockets are doing to Palestinians.

Thank You

Oh, and yeah, Iran really hates genocide. Just ask the Kurds.

"Hamas had respected the previously negotiated ceasefire except when Israel used it as cover to make assassination raids. Hamas argued that these raids were hardly a manifestation of a ceasefire, and so as symbolic protest it would allow the release of rocket fire (usually hitting no targets). But when the issue of continuing the ceasefire came up, Hamas wanted a guarantee that these assassination raids would stop. And it asked for more. With hundreds of thousands of Palestinians facing acute malnutrition, Hamas insists that the borders be opened so that food can arrive unimpeded. And in return for the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, it asks for the release of 1,000 Palestinians imprisoned in Israel."

from
It breaks my heart to see Israel's stupidity
By Rabbi Michael Lerner

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5446519.ece

Rod,

the stupid guys on here will tell you that Rabbi Michael Lerner is a Self Hating Jew....

Check out the link I provided in a previous comment on the SHIT list.

Hector,

Hamas and Hizballah are it's messengers (Hamas is actually a branch of the terrorists Muslim Brotherhood, who are closely working with Iran). If we could hit Ahmednijad, we would be glad to. So far we can only hit his puppet.

i know he isn't kevin, but i decided to humour him anyways, its much more constructive than argueing with a wall

Rod,

THE FIRST ISRAELI "ASSASINATIONS" CAME TWO MONTHS LATER, WHEN HAMAS OPERATED A KIDNAPPING TUNNEL, VIOLATING THE CEASE-FIRE

Kevin Brandon Professor, Beny ...etc,
I wish that you all engage in an educated discussion this is not a place for spreading hate. I have seen some talking about nuking the palestinians and some name calling. If some of you want to spread hate or fight please get each others emails and go to live messengers and do whatever you want.
Here is a place to present your views not hate!

Good for you, Rod! ;)

Beny,

there are 192 confirmed israeli violations to the cease fire.
anyway the issue and you know is not the rockets and is not Hamas.
The issue is much more complicated than this and you and I know there are many extremists in Israel who do not recognize the right for palestinians to live, Period.
So when we complain about Hamas we should recognize our own terrorists and extermists.
Hamas came as a result of Israeli and Jewish Extremism and under the encouragement of Shin-Bet

Uri Avenery writes:

"it is no secret that it was the Israeli government which set up Hamas to start with. When I once asked a former Shin-Bet chief, Yaakov Peri, about it, he answered enigmatically: “We did not create it, but we did not hinder its creation.”
For years, the occupation authorities favored the Islamic movement in the occupied territories. All other political activities were rigorously suppressed, but their activities in the mosques were permitted. The calculation was simple and naive: at the time, the PLO was considered the main enemy, Yasser Arafat was the current Satan. The Islamic movement was preaching against the PLO and Arafat, and was therefore viewed as an ally.
With the outbreak of the first intifada in 1987, the Islamic movement officially renamed itself Hamas (Arabic initials of “Islamic Resistance Movement”) and joined the fight. Even then, the Shin-Bet took no action against them for almost a year, while Fatah members were executed or imprisoned in large numbers. Only after a year, were Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and his colleagues also arrested.
Since then the wheel has turned. Hamas has now become the current Satan, and the PLO is considered by many in Israel almost as a branch of the Zionist organization."

I have a question. Who does Gaza trade with? I keep hearing they can't get supplies. What do they make and who do they trade with to get their supplies?

Well I have work to go do. I just hope Hamas stops firing missiles and allows UN monitors from mixed, neutral countries. Israel withdraws. Israel doesn't go near or talk to Gaza and vice versa. All the Arab countries leave Israel to live in peace and Israel leaves the Arab countries in peace and all the deaths stop. And I hope the people of Darfur are left in peace. Can't forget those hundreds of thousands being killed off. The world deserves some peace.

Rod,

I have tried to reason with Kevin and this terror cell lead by Brandon but all what I got is filth in return.... so i've been ignoring them all day.

1. Gaza has a border with Egypt. If there is a blockade by the Israelis and Gaza has been sealed, why are the muslim brethren from Egypt not helping their brothers ansd sisters?
2. Why are the Gazans dependent on Israel for Gas, water,electricity when they could be supplied by Egypt, their fellow Moslems? The wealth of the Arab world could be funnelled through Egypt to help the poor Palestinians. Why is this not happening?
3. The duty of a government is to protect and look after its citizens/electorate. Why didn’t Hamas if determined on rocketing Israel, build shelters for the people? Surely they knew that if they were going to tread on a lion’s tale for 8 years the lion would turn on them.
4. Can someone please explain to me what Hamas wants? I mean I know Israel wants a two state solution. Does Hamas just want total destruction of Israel? Were they “elected” on that manifesto? How can you talk to psomeone whose whole purpose is to wipe you out….how can you negotiate?
5. Can someone explain to me why the Gazans/Hamas can fire indiscriminately on Israel for years and years and not expect Israel to eventually act to safeguard its people?
6. Can someone explain to me why HOLOCAUST is an appropriate description of what is going on. THere were 3,000000 jews in Poland before the war, about 20,000 survived. So far just over 600 Gazans have been killed. The vast majority members of Hamas. That’s not a HOLOCAUST.
7. Where were all the humanitarians when the suicide bombers were rampant. Where are all the human right activists in Sderot.
8. Can someone please explain to me the difference betwen anti Zionism and ant-semitism. To me if you are an anti-Zionist you are anti the Jews having a Homeland, but fine for the English, French, Hashemites (who incidentally rule a land with which they have no connection with). So in my book if you’re anti the jews having a homeland but don’t mind everyone else having one, then you are anti-jewish or an anti-semite.
9. Finally, I think Golda Meir’s comment is apt here. Israel would rather at this point have the world’s conemnation tan her condolences.

Its a pity that the UN could so easily be crippled and removed from the scene by not being able to do any thing about the increasing violations against innocent Palestinians civilians, and neither can the EU or Arab League and the other international organizations and Muslim countries. Isn't all this and the disproportionate number of Palestinian and Israeli deaths and victims proof enough for the US, UK and France to not waste time and call out for an immediate effective ceasefire, or are we to tolerate this nonsensical 'terrorism' promoting charade at the UN all over again?

No matter what the excuses Israel and its allies give, the world and them should take note that the very actions of Israel is triggering a massive movement in the Muslim world, and the future looks very very unsafe and worrisome more so for the Israelis and their allies.

Harvey,
I think your blog is excellent. One thing tho, you states:"The duty of a government is to protect and look after its citizens/electorate" That is what the government means to us and some countries, but in some countries, they don't see it that way, which is a shame.

there's no reason to discuss,because israel is always right,because they're god's chosen people

If Gaza is unable to get supplies – who do they get all their materials for missiles and mortars and guns and ammo? No one will sell them anything but these kinds of things. None of this makes sense. Well, I'm trying to understand it all. I still can't figure why everyone is protesting Israel going in to stop missiles and stuff firing on them that Hamas hid among populated areas, then that population being hurt, and people blaming Israel. Shouldn't they be mad at Hamas for firing from there and hiding out among crowded areas? Well, I do have to go. It's just confusing. Unbelievable really. Have a good day all.

Bye GLeigh, hope to see you later!

Hi Hippie! Good to see you

Linda thank you

Professor,
Just engage in a productive discussion. There are people who will not change from either side and those are not the ones who you engage your discussion with. Presenting one's case should be smart and supplemented by facts. Caps and bolds do not make ones case stronger.

There are many reasonable people here look for example at Linda ( smart, educated and wants to read and know more) and many others who read and do not post so make your case to those people.

Well thank you Rod, I feel so special ;)

Rod,

you are right.... thats all what they use caps and boldface...

Anyways.... good talking to you.

"by Uri Avnery a syndicated Israeli writer"

you show your complete ignorance of anything to do with the middle east if you have no clue who uri avnery is. certainly not a syndicated israeli writer, as you claim

and the professor who did not even finish highschool judging from his lies and falsifications of history? anybody really think he can "engage in a productive discussion"? that must be the joke of the millenium

hahahahaha

the ahmas leaders are wearing hospital gowns and hide in the gynocology ward of sheefa hospital and in the tunnels below, which are full of explosives

when they move in the streets they hold babies in their arms, the heroes

Harvey,
I hope you asked the questions and you are wanting answers not that you just post them.

no one is with a Holocaust against Jews and not the one that is happening now in Gaza. but having gone through one is not an excuse for us to do it to others.

IDF two days ago said they have killed 132 Hamas in the operations that lasted 10 days then. Given the numbers of over five hundred Palestinians killed at that time the majority is then not Hamas. the majority is civilians and mainly women and children.

Israel protecting itself will not come from this operation. Actually all the ones affected by this will be more extremist and Israel will not succeed to root out terrorism because this is helping it flourish.

We need to look at the root causes of all of this the root cause is the imprisonment of 1.5 million palestinians in gaza with no food or medicines and we really should not act like we are so innocent and they are throwing rockets at us.

I posted some facts about Hamas earlier from Israeli sources which shows that we helped creating Hamas.

Again I am Against Terrorism from the State of Israel and Hamas.

Mariam Farid

are you threatening?

i am shaking with fear

Thank you Linda.
I would add...
1. Egypt not keen on helping Hamas because they don't want Islamist state next door.
2. Jordan not keen on helping Hamas for same reason.( By the way if you look at map of British Mandate a lot of "Palestine" is where modern day Jordan is).The lack of will on the part of the Arab world to help their Palestinian brothers is alarming. If Gaza is under blockade then the Arab State of Egypt is far more responsible than Israel.
3. I believe in a 2 state solution. But sadly till Hamas and the Palestinians they purport to represent do as well, we will never have peace. To paraphrase Abba Eban "the Arab leaders lose no opportunity to lose every opportunity". Sadly when Arafat had the chance to opt for peace and turn from terrorist to statesman (like Mandela) he couldn't take his people that way because it would mean trying to build a (Palestinian) State as opposed to destroying the (Israeli) State. Arafat and his corrupt cronies who stole the handouts meant for their own people have left a terrible legacy.
4. I have no desire to see loss of life of either Palestinians or Israelis and every desire to see peace, but until Gaza and the Gazans have a leadership in place to talk peace and who care more about the welfare of their own people (the Palestinians) than the destruction of another people (the Jews), peace will not be a reality.
5. There was a Jewish kid called Yoni Jessner. Blown up in a suicide bombing. His heart was donated to a Palestinian kid. Maybe there is a lesson there for us all. There is an Arab kid who is living because a Jewish heart was given to him. A walking example of tragedy that became hope and life....how many more have to die on both sides?
6. Final words to paraphrase Golda Meir "There will only be peace when the Arab leadership learns to love its children more than they hate the Jews">

rod

u r against terrorism? ask ur friends to release gilead shalit

Rod,
I have a question, I don't know if anyone can answer this because we are not there, but how does Israel know how many were Hamas and how many were civilians? I have seen reports, that even 16 year old boys are counted as civilians, but they could also be Hamas. I am just wondering.

Dan and Harvey both make good points. I started reading and saw some glimmer of hope. Trying to determine who owns "land" is useless. Do you go back 50 years, a hundred, two thousand? Neither side is spotless. Blaming is useless. Israel should be left alone by all peacefully. Gaza should be left alone by all peacefully. Everyone else should be left alone peacefully. Knowing the problems, neutral UN monitors should separate Israel and Gaza and make sure that peace is long lasting. People should be productive, support themselves, and leave their neighbors alone.

Rod,

Thank you for your response. I will deal with them as per below.
1. Blockade/imprisonment of 1.5m palestinians: Gaza has border with Egypt. The wealth of the Arab oil nations could be funneled through via this border. Gaza need not rely on Israel for any essentials, oil, gas, water, electricity if the Arab world really wanted to help. Therefore Egypt and the Arab nations are as much to blame for "the blockade" against Gaza as Israel.
2. Holocaust: I don't accept that Israel is carrying out a systematic destruction of the Palestinians in the same way that the Nazius carried out a systematic destruction of the Jews. Simply put Israel is going after the rockets and those who fire them.Sadly Hamas chose to operate within civillian premises. Indeed sadly this is an example of Hamas taking its own people hostage and allowing them to be slaughtered.
3. Please tell me what other action is open to Israel if it wants the rockets to be stopped firing? Go on pretend that you are prime minister of Israel and your people have been rocketed for years.What do you do?
(a) Negotiation...tried that, no one to negotiate with. Hamas do not recognise right of Israel to exist.Takes a partner to make peace with.
(b) Open up border crossings. Ooops lots of suicide bombings occurring.
(c) cease fire...? Used by Hmas to get better and longer range weapons.
(d) over 850,000 of your people in range of rocket fire...
Well Rod, over to you?

GLeigh,

Ofcourse we cannot go back 50 years.... where people still alive and they hold the title for their land and the key to their house.... but they live accross the river in a refugee camp.... and eastern european jew live and enjoy their home for free..... that is a very fair equation. I hope one day you will loose your home and you will live in a refugee camp... then let me hear you saying i am willing to forget it and move on and let the one who stole my home enjoy it.

Hello Dan,

Like I have just said on other blog,

As someone who has worked overseas with the Red Cross, I know that aid staff are at extreme risk. I hope you realise that.

Israel has killed aid workers before.
Hamas also have killed aid workelers to.

The whole tragic point to this is no one side in a war have the respect for those of providing for the vulnerable. Aid workers are perceived as either giving aid and comfort to the enemy or dogooders. Its unacceptable. If some people new what it is really to try their very best to show humanity in a place where humanity seems like it doesnt exist, and try and save the lives of ALL HUMANS regardless of ethnicity or religion. We get blasted from all sides.

Enough is enough. restraint must be showm by BOTH sides. Respect needs to be shown to those who are there to save and protect life and property and let them do their work unhindered.

HAMAS AND IDF need to be carefull. If any of them get hurt it,. they may go to hospital which is manned by UN or Red Cross staff which will do their best to save their lives.

Professor,

You make a great point.
Historically though there is precedent for the division of a land and people migrating from one area to another. Modern day India and Pakistan for example.
After the second world war, many jewish refugees made new lives and homes for themselves. They did this with the emotional and financial support of the wider Jewish community
The Jews from Ehiopia, Yemen, Iran Iraq, Syria were taken in by Israel and likewise were given support.
These refugees were supported by their own people and State.

Sadly those refugees Arab refugees who left their homes were not supported by their oil rich, Arab brethren and were not given the opportunity to create new lives for themselves. On the contrary the Arab world instaed of absorbing those refugees kept them in squalid refugee camps using them as propoganda ....don't think you can so easily and conveniently blame the Jews. You must take a long hard look at the injustices carried out on the Palestinian people by their fellow Arabs. Black September for example in the 70's to Hamas killing over 100 Fatah members just recently...

What about the Christian Arabs being driven out of Bethlehem by the Islamic Fundamentalists there?

But lets not get caught up in historic mud slinging.

History by some accident or God with delicious irony has put the descendants of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac together as neighbours.

Lets stop blaming eachother for the wrongs and ills of the past that we did and are alleged to have done one another.

Instead let us accept that we can live as neighbours. Two States existing side by side. Yes maybe some Palestinians will not be able to return to their ancient holdings, just as many Jews cannot return to Eastern Europe and the Arab Lands that they came from and were expelled from. But together Arab and Jew we can create 2 states, living in peace with respect for eachother's beliefs and right to exist.

Lets not play the blame game. Let us move forward together as otherwise we cannot make progress. It is much easier to blame, point the figure and recite atrocities. Much harder to take a long hard look in the mirror at ourselves and say "what do we want for our children?"

Thank you

THANK YOU, HARVEY

Harvey,

Obviously, your lies are very clear.... You do not read.... you are clueless... you are just repeating Israeli Embassy talking points like a parrot....

Read the article in the New York Times about the Jews who left Syria.... they left on their own... it was their choice... they were not driven out.... they can come back to their homes any time they want... they still have them shut down and they have their keys with them....

Palestinians Christians were never driven out by Muslims.... they were driven out by Israeli Forces attack aganist them. I've worked on this issue with Christians and Muslims Palestinians and Jews from Israel.... so don't tell me what you read... I am telling you the facts on the ground.

Professor,
What do you think of the last 2 paragraphs?

Instead let us accept that we can live as neighbours. Two States existing side by side. Yes maybe some Palestinians will not be able to return to their ancient holdings, just as many Jews cannot return to Eastern Europe and the Arab Lands that they came from and were expelled from. But together Arab and Jew we can create 2 states, living in peace with respect for eachother’s beliefs and right to exist.

Lets not play the blame game. Let us move forward together as otherwise we cannot make progress. It is much easier to blame, point the figure and recite atrocities. Much harder to take a long hard look in the mirror at ourselves and say “what do we want for our children?”

Why doesn't Israel let intenational journaists into Gaza? Could it be that they don't want them to see what is really happening there? How much more of this is the world going to put up with? I don't want to feel animosity towards the Jewish people but at this moment it's very hard not to. However we have all seen what can happen when animosity towards Jews flowers, the same as what they are doing to the people in the Gaza Strip!

Bero,
They let a crew of British journalists in yesterday. They have been reporting. I would say, in my opinion, that 1) it's for their safety, and 2) tactical reasons. But there could be something sinister, we will never really know.

Linda,

I like that... this is not new... I will show you how many statements we drafted together like this in the past.

Most of the Palestinians will agree with this too....

Professor,

I refuse to get drawn into a mud slinging exercise with you. I do not believe in insulting people.

1. Walid Shoebat deals with the persecution of Christain Arabs in Bethlehem in some detail. He is an Arab so with respect my view is borne out by one of your own. Go to http://www.shobat.com
2. I have relatives who were driven out of Syria, so please do not seek to lecture me. Fact is with an Israeli passport they aren't allowed to travel to Syria. They left because of persecution. They ain't making it up... Regardless my point is simple refugees can make new lives for themselves with support from their communities, something the Jews were able to do for their own people and that the Arabs were not.
3. The facts on the ground ? Perhaps you are so rooted in the ground that you ignore a hand reached out in friendship . I am not spouting Israeli propoganda. I am advocating a peaceful way forward. The road to peace involves taking a long hard look at yourself.You are obviously incapable of this and as such you have my pity as you are so rooted in self pity and pointing the accusations of blame that you cannot even debate, but prefer to trash anything that doesn't sit well with you as propoganda...
4. You refuse to answer my point as to a 2 State solution. Do you agree with this?
5. You refuse to answer my question with regard to why Egypt has not opened its border to its Muslim brothers.
6. You refuse to answer my question as to why the Egyptian border could not be used as a floodgate to bring gas, electricity, food,water from the oil rich Arabs to their Palestinian brothers and sisters. Why rely on the hated Israelis? Truth is you don't want to answer these questions as irt doesn't suit you.
7. Are you saying Black Sep[tember never happened? That the Jordanians didn't massacre the Palestinains?
8. If you want to debate am happy to do so But please don't make yourself look stupid by dismissing my points as propoganda. You do yourself and your viewpoint no credit.

With much respect

.

I'd like to see a link to the NYT article The Professor cites.

Oh Professor see below web site on history of persecution of Syrian Jews...you might learn something

http://www.uscis.gov/files/nativedocuments/MESYR93001.pdf

Harvey,

Syrian Jews should have Syrian Passports... why do they need to travel to Syria with an Israeli passport?

see how you are fabricating the story?

Huh? Professor, Syria won't give its Jews passports and you know that.

Ever heard of the Jews of Aleppo? There used to be 17,000 of them. What happened to them? Look it up.

BTW, still waiting on that link.

Nona,

I tried to pull that article for you again but since its an old article in the New York Archives they are asking me for a payment.

If its that important for you you can go ahead and purchase it from the New York times....

I am going to search my archinves and see if I kept a copy of it.... if I find it i will send it to you.

Thank you Nona...

Yes I too would like the reference to the NYT article the good professor cites.

I have given him two sources re persecution of Christain Arabs by their fellow Muslim Arabs and the persecution of Jews of Syria by the Syians.

Both these sources were not produced by the Israeli embassy....

Over to you Prof, where can I check out the source you quote?

The Professor refuses to give a single source other than some youtube links he occasionally posts.

Ahhh the Professor is quoting an article that he can't find....kind of convenient. So perhaps the Prof is being economical with his memory.

I think if you want to quote an article you should at least have it available and not tell the people who you are quoting it to to go find it/pay for it themselves. With respect Prof till you produce the evidence we have to dismiss it. You used it ,up to you to produce it....but thank you for a good laugh.

Prof if you check the sources I supplied you with, you will understand why it is really impossible for my relatives to return to Syria....Nona made that point beautifully.

But please answer the points I have made. Unlike you I have backed my argument with evidence that everybody has access to and can examine....

If you don't find it, send me the link anyway, professor. I have free access to the entire NYT archive through my university. I wouldn't be surprised if yours does too - most university libraries have extensive access to the NYT archives.

Harvey, I was wondering ... where did the dispicably false and slanderous Protocols of the Elders of Zion originate?

Harvey – the "Professor" yesterday, today, and most likely tomorrow as well will not back up a single assertion he has made. He manufactured lies, and I and others with no remaining doubt proved him wrong with factual, referenced evidence. Then he stated he "didn't have time" to respond and that he "had better things to do." And then he resurfaced with his same unsubstantiated crap on the next blog.

It is a pattern. I will respond accordingly, and he has yet to respond to a single point that I and others made.

I think it was produced in Russia circa 1895. It was based on the writings of an antisemitic German and amended and transalated into Russian. I think the aristocracy wanted to persuade Tsar Nicholas not to carry out reforms. Then used by White Russia as proof that the Communists who had initiated the revoloution were Jews.
Circa 1920 transalated into German and used by National Socialist Party (Nazis). It was actually revised post war in Syria (so much for the Prof)...the old matza libel was used in Syria along with the Jews killing Jesus line....
Thats what I remember anyways. Apologise for any innacuracies...good night.

Thanks Kevin,

I really don't want to get into the mud slinging, hurling insults thing....but it would be great if people substantiate what they debate...otherwise how can we take them or their views seriously.

Cheers

Oh – you are referring to the Czarist forgery "Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Yes Kevin,

Nona asked about its origins....
Maybe you know more than me.
I just wrote what I recalled.

Professor,
Quit now. You are already behind. I think that it has been proven that you are a pathological liar. All Islamic terrorists are pathological liars. I must give you one thing though, most of the international media has fallen for your lies. However, the truth always comes back to bite you!

Thanks , Kevin & Harvey. Kevin is right – it was indeed a Russian fraud.

I was thinking that particular blood libel was written in Syria, but actually, it's just a best-seller there that was broadcast as a miniseries by Syrian national television.

b>Let me give a lesson to everyone in Hamas 101.

Its charter, adopted in August 1988, is even more extremist and overtly anti_semitic than the PLO charter. It calls for the "reinstitution of the Muslim state" in "every inch of Palestine" and the raising of the "banner of Allah" over all of Palestine which it described as an "Islamic Waqf." It proclaims that any compromise, even if every Arab and Palestinian leader were to accept it, would be in violation of Islamic law. All peace initiatives or "so called peaceful solutions are contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement." And "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion." It proclaims that neither Jews nor Christians, who it characterized collectively as "the unbelievers" can be trusted, and declares "There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad."
The charter then becomes overtly and crudely anti-Semitic in describing the "Nazism of the Jews" and claiming that "Israel, by virtue of it being Jewish and having a Jewish population, defiled Islam and the Muslims." It falsely claims that "when the Jews occupied Holy Jerusalem in 1967,...they shouted with joy, 'Muhammed is dead, he left daughters behind,'" implying that the Jews want to rape Muslim women and girls. It then invokes the anti_Semitic czarist forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and argues that their "present conduct is the best proof of what is said there (in the Protocols).
The Hamas Charter also blames the Jews for the French and RUssian Revolutions, World Wars I and II, and the creation of the United Nations "in order to rule over the world." Calling the arrival of Jewish refugees in Palestine "this despicable Nazi-Tartar invasion" the charter – in a burst of irrationality exceeding even that which came previously – then casts some of the blame on "the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions Clubs and "other secret organizations which act for the interests of Zionism and under its directions strive to demolish societies" and to distribute "drugs and toxics of all kinds in order to facilitate its control and expansion." The Charter ends by demanding that all Muslims resist this Crusade by "Jews, the merchants of war," as they resisted the Christian Crusades. Describing Judaism as a "false and falsified faith," it confidently predicts victory over the "Nazi Zionists."
Then it condemns Egypt for making peace with Israel and condemns the PLO for "adopting secular thought" and advocating secular solutions. Only a purely Islamic state, with no Jews, and all Christian Arabs in a subordinate status, would be acceptable to Hamas.

Thanks Kevin...

Have got to run. Appreciate everybodys input. Lets pray that there are no casualties on both sides...that a lasting peace comes speedily and the boys in the IDF come home safely.

coward israelies : after 13 days of massacres ( idf) didnot dare to face brave hamas fighters face to face...its acoward war ....we will keep fighting for onother 1000 years

Mahmoud:
If Israel wanted to deliberately target Palestinians in the most densely populated area on Earth – shitloads more would be killed – it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. The fact that a few hundred are dead in a 13 day operation is frankly proof that the opposite is happening.

You call the Hamas fighters "brave"? Please read the Hamas Charter above. Is that "brave" or is it vengeful hatred? I think most people would argue the latter. Is it "brave" to use human shields like your Hamas fighters do? Let me quote Jonas from earlier:

January 7th, 2009 1534 GMT
I quote Jonas above:

Contrary to what other people may think, I think that you are actually intellectually challenged. Firstly, you do not address any of the issues I raised in my posting, but go straight on to attack Israel. You, and every other Muslim extremist on earth, always sidestep issues that prove that Islamic terrorists are cold-blooded murderers who worship death and treat life with great disrespect. You always have some half-baked excuse as to why it is ok to murder innocent people in the name of Islam, but scream evil when Muslims get killed. The irony is that people like Hamas couldn’t care less if Muslims were killed in their quest to force their beliefs onto everyone. They proved this when they murdered Fatah members in Gaza. You teach children and women to become suicide bombers and then you cry when women and children get killed by Israelis. You promise some fool 70 virgins in heaven if he killed himself and innocent people, instead of telling him the truth that he will burn in hell! Now you want to claim the moral high ground because someone won’t believe your lies and misinformation any longer and decided that enough is enough. I am neither Jewish, nor do I live in Israel, but I do understand Muslim extremism and the evil that it brings. You will be surprised as to how many friends the Israelis really have. Not everyone is fooled by your propaganda and your attempt to divert the world’s attention away from the atrocities committed all over the world by Muslim extremists. Some Atheists, and some misinformed bleeding-heart liberals will cry and beat their breasts in sympathy and will, for a while, be fooled by what they see on TV, but sooner, rather than later, all moderate Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc… will see you for what you really are and reject you. Don’t think that what you read in these blogs and see on TV constitute world opinion. The silent majority isn’t fooled.

mahmoud jboor
January 9th, 2009 004 GMT

coward israelies : after 13 days of massacres ( idf) didnot dare to face brave hamas fighters face to face…its acoward war ….we will keep fighting for onother 1000 years

Well that is an intelligent perspective! If this is your attitude, why are you crying about it? Sound like you want to fight, and you just may be the one to get exterminated first. We shall see.

This is from the above article :

"UNRWA chief spokesman Chris Gunness said the agency will suspend its activities until the Israeli military can guarantee the safety of its staff."

It says: "Isreali military" suspending its activity of targeting and killing the drivers who is carrying the AID.

If this is not "cowardly" than this what ..... "bravery" ...

Kary Ludeman,

The biggest illegal arm dealer is Israel selling weapons to Africa in return for diamonds .... so who you think should stop selling from Nations or buying by illegal group.

i think of the first .... your voice with us please .... lets stop this .... what do you think ?

It Appalls me that Americans are paying for this when while going through economic depression.

Did you ask yourself why?

if you really want to stop this massacre go to

http://www.endtheoccupation.org/

Get involved, call your congressmen tell them That you do not want your Tax Money used to kill Children and Women.

Congressmen want more Children and Women killed to be re-elected.

You are paying for this Massacre. Make a statement. Say NO.

Say “NO” to killing and murdering with our money.

Beny and Kevin,

I have never been so angry after reading any blog and I want to make that clear.

You are two white supremacist who wiil pay a price one day. USE A TACTICAL NUCLEAR STRIKE on poor helpless brown or like you racist Israelis and others call them sand.......?

Is israel a racist nation? Absolutely.

How are you treating the REAL and peaceful Ethiopian Jews you airlifted to Israel several years ago?

Are they holding good jobs? Are they part of the decision making process? I bet you are treating them like second class citizens and using them for fodder in the IDF.

You guys are pathetic and your day of judgement in a war crimes court will come. Where is my money you wall street blood suckers stole from me. You are sucking the last drop of blood of America. No MORE BILLIONS FOR ARMS FOR THE WELFARE STATE.

I just want all the Jews to die

This neutral civilian truck driver was killed at the hands of the terrorists. Israel must be stopped. If an Islamic militant would have killed this person, there would be outcry, that international forces must come together to stop the "extremists." Israel is always given a pass, and it should be nomore. They should be held to task, and the U.N. should stop coddling the terrorists of Israel.

As no outside journalist is in Gaza, HAMAS controlled all news and picture coming out of Gaza. Therefore, they can do what they like.
Any rational person will not believe that Israel troop deliberately shoots at the civilian at a school or shoots a UN driver or ambulance.
I suspect it's all HAMAS doing then as usual accuse the Israeli did it.
Unfortunately, the Media buy their report/accusation.
These pictures and news is to heighten Muslims world emotion and hatred toward Israel. The pictures and news become the instrument of brainwashing which Muslims already got a heavy dose every Friday in the mosque.
Since Islam adopted "the end justified the mean" HAMAS don't care about the safety of their own people by continuing fire rockets knowing that the Israel will fire back.
I am sorry for the Muslims mindset who sees thing differently with normal people. I.e. they are silent when Muslims kill Muslims in Iraq, Pakistan etc. Yet when Israel tried to counter HAMAS terrorism act, they seem to get possess. No Arab/Muslims mention about what HAMAS didthat trigger the war.
HAMAS is using the picture and news from Gaza through their Arab media and Western media to stir and manipulate world opinion.
They know they cannot win by force against Israel.
Muslims wprld don't realised that HAMAS hold the Gaza Palestinian as hostage.
The reason why the Palestinian /Arab and Israel case cannot be solve is that it is a spiritual battle. The Nazies tried to wipe off the Jews. Then the Arabs combine tried in 1967 which they were humiliated by lossing the war in just 6days. Now Iran via HAMAS and Hezbolah and Al Qaeda try again. But they will not succeed.

The hatred of Muslims on the Jews is based on Islam teaching.
So, I cannot blame them what they become because they are the first victim of Islam teaching.

This one example of Allah words
[Surah 5:51][Shakir] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

8:12 (Y. Ali) Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

9:14 (Y. Ali) Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

This is the reason why majority of Muslims do instill terror to every nation on earth.

Note for CNN . if you believe in free speech and not influence by terror, I hope you will acept this comment for the sake of the truth.

your right john but it doesnt stop there. hamas is also flying the f15s and f16s that are dropping bombs on gaza. they are shelling gaza from israli territory. the ships in the sea blockading the palestinian ports and refusing palestinian fisherman to earn a living, yeah they are hamas too. and those soldiers and tanks killing civilians. thats all hamas. isralis are peace loving people who would never do anything like start a war, imprission an entire population or kill women and children. thanks for the ever so enlightening ensight

How would the US population feel if day by day Mexico were to bombard it with rockets for 8 years? If mexicans were to explode in a mall in the middle of New York?

beny

the big difference between what your saying and what ariane is saying is that mexico is a soverign state with absolutely no reason to atteck the US, its not like the US occupies their land is it? lets bring what she is saying a little closer to home. if your house was taken, your mother shot infront of your eyes, your by her side for days on end, dying with no food just like the little kids the UN agencies were talking about, would you grow up wanting to do anything but kill the people who did this even if it leads to your own death? dont get me wrong im not defending hamas or what it does, but violence breeds violence, and the state of isreal began this violence over a century ago before it even existed. isreal brought this on itself, if you treat people like animals, you can expect nothing less than them acting like animals, its basic human nature we learn from our surroundings. therefore if a child grows up seeing nothing but death or destruction around him, as has every palestinian child born in the last 60+ years, you cant blame them for having a disregard for human life, even if that life is their own. these so called terrorists are products of their societies, and its isreal that created this society. one thing that people dont seem to realize is that palestinians for the most part do not fear death because the alternative isnt much better. if isrealis want peace they know what needs to be done. but the bottom line is they dont want peace, its not in their interests (and by their i dont mean the general population i mean the elitist zionists who actually make considerable profits from all these wars that are started-note its only the population that is effected financially in war, not the elitists behind the scenes who own all the companies that just so happen to provide all the required equipment). if you want proof of this all you need to do is look at the companies owned by bush and his cronies, then you will realize why they went to war in iraq (thats if rumsfelds statements werent clear enough to you). ultimately, all your pro-isreali arguements are again proof that we are products of society, ive heard arguements that the media is so pro-palestinian, what a load of crap if they were isreal would be refered to as terrorists as well as hamas for their blatent disregard for palestinian life (why else use phospherous bombs in civilian areas – a war crime for those who dont know). but thats not the point, if you people werent so indoctrinated by the pro-isreali nature of the media you would question the so called terrorist actions of both sides not just one. your clearly not educated on what is happening, you listen to the news, have the idea that all muslims are terrorists and base you ASSUMPTIONS on that. try reading a book. if you dont know where to start i recommend yitzhak laor (an isreali who isnt blinded by the society in which he lives) and build from there.

propose a tactical nuclear deployment on Gaza. It would create an immediate cease-fire, and not a single rocket would ever be launched into Israel from Gaza or Lebanon after a tactical nuclear solution.

kevin

have you ever been to school. what are you saying this is by far the stupidest comment i have ever heard. its so stupid i shouldn't bother answering but i will. first of all it wouldn't create an immediate ceasefire it would start WW3, not an arab in this world would stand for it and i guarantee they will all pick up arms including me and i am very liberal (if the iraq invasion increased the threat of so called terrorism seven fold what do you think this will do). furthermore other nations namely iran, russia and china wont stand for it and when one of them gets involved so does the rest of the world. in a post on another page you said it would cause colateral casualties, wow your very pro-humanity arent you. do you even know what a nuke is. fisrt of all you cant drop one on a land the size of gaza and not kill everyone, thats 1.5 million people fyi. on top of that the radioactive fall out would destroy the lives of every isreali and every egyptian living in the sinai penninsula (thats the piece of land next to gaza, since you dont seem to know what a nuke is i doubt you know where sinai is). my God i thought Bush was a fool, lets hope and pray to God that you never get into a position of power, that would be it for humanity. you need to educate yourself before making comments on the internet for the world to see. bottom line all this hate being preached by defenders of both sides will only result in more war, more death, more destruction of property and lives. maybe its time we as humanbeings stood up against both forms of terrorism, not just pick a side and try to defend it even though any arguement made is totally floored because both sides are commiting the exact same attrocities (even if isreal does it to a larger scale, and the root source of all these problems is their national policies-which is pretty much irrenlevent)

tarig your right on. couldnt of put it better myself.
israel exist only with the support of the u.s. the solution to the problem lies with the u.s.a applying the appropriate pressure to israel. enforce the camp david agreement which mandated israel return all post 67 captured land. all means all. all settlements in the west bank should be closed. isralis sometime use the argument that they offered the palestinians 95% of the captured land and was refused. did you ever look at the exact land offered. the west bank would have been divided up into ove 20 small pieces criscrosed by continuous israli controlled land often no more than a road and leeway. who could possibly take such an offer.
i say cut off all aid . declare israel a terrorist state just as hamas is declared a terrorist organization and wait for israel to come to the negotiation table in a truely honest mannor.

Jim , you are an example of what Islam did to your logic.
Israel has to do it because HAMAS kept firing rockets INDISCRMATELY which terrorises the people in Israel.
Do think, Hamas will win?
It Israel did what the HAMAS/Muslims world claimed that Israel deliberately killing ordinary Palestinians as HAMAS and the Jihadis do, the war will be over in two days.

This proves that you cannot think that what HAMAS and your imam brainwashed the Muslims telling finah story is illogical . Thus this that proves that Islam made you to see things differently or upside down.

Learn history, If Arab combines did not declare war on tiny Israel in 1967, Gaza and Westbank now so call Palestinians case will not arose. Gaza was part of Egypt and Westbank was part of Jordan before 1967.
There were no Palestinians.
Oh you want to know why Israel won the war in only 6 days against Arabs armies combine (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, Algiers and Pakistani pilot fighter jet )?
Here is what God said through the Prophet Isaiah:
Isaiah 41:8-14
8 “ But you, Israel, are My servant,
Jacob whom I have chosen,
The descendants of Abraham My friend.
9 You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth,
And called from its farthest regions,
And said to you,

‘ You are My servant,
I have chosen you and have not cast you away:
10 Fear not, for I am with you;
Be not dismayed, for I am your God.
I will strengthen you,
Yes, I will help you,
I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.’
11 “ Behold, all those who were incensed against you
Shall be ashamed and disgraced;
They shall be as nothing,
And those who strive with you shall perish.
12 You shall seek them and not find them—
Those who contended with you.
Those who war against you
Shall be as nothing,
As a nonexistent thing.
13 For I, the LORD your God, will hold your right hand,
Saying to you, ‘Fear not, I will help you.’
14 “ Fear not, you worm Jacob,
You men of Israel!
I will help you,” says the LORD
And your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

6 Days war was a miracle. Israel capture the whole Sinai , the Westbank from Jordan and Golan Height in Syria.
No nations on earth can do it. to win the war against overwheming enemies that surrounded the tiny Israel and won in just 6 days.

This also proved that God did do what he promised to the Israeli.

Unfortunately your Allah did not or cannot help the Arabs Muslims with his angels to destroy the Israeli once and for all.

8:9 (Y. Ali) Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: "I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks."

3:125 (Y. Ali) "Yea, – if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a terrific onslaught.
Surah 8:12 [Shakir] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

President Naser of Egypt rang president Azad of Syria before they launch an attack combine and said:" See you in Jerusalem ! ".

It's the same with HAMAS promises to the Palestinian Gazan that they will be victorious with the war and will wipe off the state of Israel.

Wake up !

Jim,
Look at the fact and not conspiracies theory.
Ariel Sharon forcefully uproots the Jews his own people from Gaza as a gesture land for peace.
But, what did HAMAS DID/DO in return?
1. Self declared victory.
2. They took over Gaza by force and killed many fellow Palestinians Fatah.
3. start firing rockets to Israel ever since.
4. By this they actually hold Gazan as hostage. Meaning that if Israel counters attack, they can use palestinians as human shield, which what they do now.
The picture and video that come out of Gaza were approved by HAMAS, since there are no foreign journalist. Therefore, they can do what they like to stir hatred toward Israel by these pictures and video where no HAMAS fighter were in it.
The Muslims and the world are now under HAMAS deception.

Now let me see the Gaza case in a spiritual angle
in context with what God did in 1967 6 days war.
Muslims and it allies cannot uproot the Jews from the land which God has given them.
It's God will that the Jews/Israeli to return to their land. As I quote the verses of prophet Isaiah 41: 8-12
Muslims much understand this.
If you try to wipe off Israel from the map just like what HAMAS, Hezbolah and Iran want now, you are fighting with their God!!!.

Arabs combine armies were humiliated in losing the war in just 6 days. This is one reason why their government are unwilling to help HAMAS militarily but only lips service. Especially now that Israel has more fire power capability and technology. They learn the lesson.

People who demonstrate against Israel are just the victim of HAMAS brainwashing with nasty lies and conspiracies. They are just doing what HAMAS and the Islamic jihads want. They shed crocodile tears for Palestinians victims.
Their aim is to die and get reward in Allah's heaven and get 72 virgins, land, servant and wine. In process they take as much as souls for Allah as slaves.

4:74 Let those fight in the cause of allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory – Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value)

This is the reason why Muslims philosophy is keen on chaos and death rather than life and harmony.

Back to Gaza, After Ariel Sharon forcefully up rooted the Jews from Gaza thinking as land for peace, he got a stroke and now still in coma after two years.
I think this is a warning for those who want to split Jerusalem in two?
Iran leaders, especially Ahmeddinejad must take not !

tarig wrote:"lets bring what she is saying a little closer to home. If your house was taken, your mother shot in front of your eyes, your by her side for days on end, dying with no food just like the little kids the UN agencies were talking about, would you grow up wanting to do anything but kill the people who did this even if it leads to your own death? Don't get me wrong I'm not defending Hamas or what it does, but violence breeds violence,"

Read the fact and not just saying what HAMAS and your imam want you to believe.
It was HAMAS and the Jihadis that create the situation and conditions of the Gazan.
The wall and border check is to prevent suicide bomber entering Israel. Even your "brother" Egyptians are not allowing the Palestinians enter Egypt because of HAMAS and the radical after forcefully taking over Gaza completely and killing their own Palestinians "brother" Fatah.
Now, what will you do if your house and family are the target of HAMAS rockets everyday?
There are no Jews anymore in Gaza, how can HAMAS still claim Israel being an occupier?
You don't even understand or realised that HAMAS is using the Palestinians as human shield instead protect them by create shelter and not firing rockets inside populations area.
While Israeli create shelter for its' people.
This is the reason why less Israeli are being killed compare to the Palestinians.
Can you not see that HAMAS only playing lips service to their own people but deep in their soul they don't care. Evilly, the palestinians victims are what they want for propaganda. Silly Muslims like you buy their stories or took their bait.
Just think, their leaders are safe and comfortable in the bunker or in Syria and Lebanon while ordering Palestinians to fight and become lame ducks in the war situation.

You see, Muslims mindset is so upside down and fixed, who only believe what 's being told, no matter how illogical or irrational maybe.
This is the reason why Jim agrees with you.

@John.P – Well the sad thing these days is that there is no common definition of logic and reasoning.

I see you are a fan of racism. Now is racism logical?

Is the argument that we should uproot Palestinians so 'the chosen ones' could live in their promised land logical?

Is the idea that Israel steadily increases the amount of its territory it by bulldozing Palestinian homes to create new Jewish settlements, although the U.N and unofficially even the U.S has condemed such action, logical?

If Jews were so scared of Muslims why on earth did they decide to form a homeland in the middle-east? Where is the logic in that?

Also now that Israel has blatantly killed innocent people, trying to act like a victim is not the best idea- IT LOOKS FAKE AND STUPID. As far as logic goes I don't see much in Israel's thinking.

Ashley

Who said that I suggest to up root Palestinian?
Racism? There are Arabs Israeli living in Israel. They even have their representative in Israel parliament.

It's Islam which teaches racist. Anti Jews or non Muslims as Kaffir.

You ask:: "If Jews were so scared of Muslims why on earth did they decide to form a homeland in the middle-east? Where is the logic in that?"
What kind of logic you have mate?
Read real history and not history according to Muslims.
Here is the answer in case you did not read my previous post:
Isaiah 41:8-14
8 “ But you, Israel, are My servant,
Jacob whom I have chosen,
The descendants of Abraham My friend.
9 You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth,
And called from its farthest regions,
And said to you,

‘ You are My servant,
I have chosen you and have not cast you away:
10 Fear not, for I am with you;
Be not dismayed, for I am your God.
I will strengthen you,
Yes, I will help you,
I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.’
11 “ Behold, all those who were incensed against you
Shall be ashamed and disgraced;
They shall be as nothing,
And those who strive with you shall perish.
12 You shall seek them and not find them—
Those who contended with you.
Those who war against you
Shall be as nothing,
As a nonexistent thing.
13 For I, the LORD your God, will hold your right hand,
Saying to you, ‘Fear not, I will help you.’
14 “ Fear not, you worm Jacob,
You men of Israel!
I will help you,” says the LORD
And your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Now, tell me where is the logic, when Combine Arab armies (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, Algier and Pakistani jet pilot) who encircle tiny Israel, were defeated and humiliated in just 6 days war in 1967.
Not only that they were pushed outside Sinai, Westbank and Goland height.

Muslims and their Leftist sympathizer can make all noises they want, but you are not fighting only with the Israeli but with their God too if they are attack by many countries like in 1967.

Ashley,

Where is HAMAS logic, they think they can defeat Israel by firing rocket to terrorised the Israeli population?
Knowing that Israel will strike back heavily due to HAMAS use tunnels.
Knowing that at the result Palestinian will suffer?

Where is Muslims and the leftist logic that in every news, they all blame Israel for the suffering and never mention that HAMAS started the war even during the last ceasefire term?
Where is the logic of HAMAS to promise victory yet still fight through tunnels and not dare to fight face to face which they warn before Israeli troop eventually has to invade???

Where is Hezbola Muslims and the leftist logic when Hezbolah declared victory. Knowing that Israel stopped the war was due to the UN agreement, that southern lebanon must be control by UN peacekeeper and Lebanese troop. So, Hezbolah lost control southern lebanon. The leaders were hiding.
When a rocket was fire from southern Lebanon jus recently, HAMAS immediately denied it.
If they were victorious (whatever that means in Muslims logic) surely they will join their "brother" in Gaza to wipe off Israel from the map just as their paymaster in Iran wanted?

ALL WHAT THE ISRAEL WANT IS FOR HAMAS TO STOP FIRING ROCKET.
Can you not understand it, Muslims and leftist want Israel to stop the war, but never mention HAMAS to stop firing.
Is that logical?

beny wrote:
"CNN recently gave an article about a photographer who filmed his brother dying. Beside deeply saddening as it was, it raised a question- a Palestinian is hurt, how come the most important thing to do is whipping out a camera? Why do they always have to film people dying?"

These nasty pictures came out of Gaza are "manufactured" by Muslims media blessed by HAMAS. Sadly, those pictures images are the only source wh Arabs and Western media depend on.
It's amazing that you never find any HAMAS fighter in the pictures or video, giving the impression that Israel is bombing civilians.
They never show wounded HAMAS fighter.
I am sure those wounded and dead men shown in the hospital must be HAMAS fighter. But of course hamas/Palestinians/UN medical / doctors will say that these men are civilian.
Sadly, Muslims and the world believe it.

However, BBC shows pictures from their reporter in Gaza contrast pictures. During 3 hours ceasefire, they show some palestinians were laughing, doing normal business at the market, children playing in the playground, as if there is no war.
The reporter said that these 3 hours ceasfire is the only times they can do business and playing.

The moral question is, why do these Western media like CNN got suck into HAMAS propaganda?